Raisin Glory ?

[reivilos]

Last week, I eventually came across a nice cultivar of a supposed Raisin Glory.

In fact, this cannot be Raisin Glory as the outcome doesn't match, but that's still the best cultivar of the fake Raisin Glory I've seen so far.

Most of the ones I had seen before had twisted dorsal. This one is flat.

 

[fibre]

What a nice flower!
I can't imagine that this flower and that genealogy fit together...

 

[troy]

Wow!! no reflexed dorsel, nice shape and color, what does the Foliage look like? That is 1 of the very first paphs I got 3 years ago starting to bloom, I hope it looks as good as yours, the only vini maudie I like

 

[monocotman]

Nice thing and with that dorsal the flower screams 'charlesworthii' hybrid to me.
David

 

[Roy]

I wouldn't discount it being a Raisin Glory. There are a number of these about, very similar. This is better that a lot of seen.

 

[reivilos]

I vote for charlesworthii hybrid too! Here what I can do now:
- nothing
- x self
- x charlersworthii https://www.flickr.com/photos/104692265@N04/15260953535/
- x Red Glory https://www.flickr.com/photos/104692265@N04/14324083626/

 

[Trithor]

Definitely has the look of a 'Maudiae' type x charlesworthii to it. we have seen a number of them posted recently on this forum. I am afraid that I don't believe it to be Raisin Glory. There is no evidence of it being callosum x lawrenceanum x sukhakulii in any combination, without the influence of something else.

 

[PaphMadMan]

That is very nice, but Raisin Glory? That is not possible. There is no doubt that has a good dose of charlesworthii. It just isn't realistic to get that appearance without it. Raisin Glory x charlesworthii perhaps, then a shortened tag could account for mislabeling. Since that cross does exist (L'Amazone Gamay) there could easily have been tags like that out there. It also accounts for a batch of them, since some of you are saying you have seen similar. Just speculation, of course. Seeing the foliage, especially leaf bases, would be interesting.

I can't encourage any breeding with a NoID that isn't truly unique and very special. We're so close to the whole system of named hybrids breaking down into complete meaningless chaos as it is. At best, a selfing might result in some confirmation of the charlesworthii ancestry, but you end up with possibly very pretty NoID seedlings that someone will in turn try to apply a label to.

 

[reivilos]

We're so close to the whole system of named hybrids breaking down into complete meaningless chaos as it is.

This would not be the first time someone has (deliberetaly?) messed up... People are now messing with species too.

I've seen those offered by various nurseries for some time now, and I've always believed the tag was wrong. Raisin Glory is still visible at OZ, and the picture is exactly what I would expect:
http://www.theorchidzoneltd.com/index_files/Page2432.htm

 

[paphioboy]

Nice one, but as mentioned above, likely a charlie hybrid. I can't help but wonder when I look at the genealogy chart, why do people bother to make the hybrids Gloriosum? It is a double backcross of Maudiae onto callosum, and should look very much like one. What were they trying to achieve?

 

[PaphMadMan]

I can't help but wonder when I look at the genealogy chart, why do people bother to make the hybrids Gloriosum? It is a double backcross of Maudiae onto callosum, and should look very much like one. What were they trying to achieve?

Gloriosum has as least 672 registered progeny, so it must have achieved something. And Gloriosum itself has certainly been re-made many times, and back-crossed to callosum for at least 2 more generations (Jac Flash & Pair O'Jacs). People do it because it works.

If your goal is an improved callosum-type hybrid, you choose to breed the 2 best plants of the type available to you. You aren't crossing back to the same callosum clone every time. There is huge natural variability in that species, as well as vastly improved callosum from generations of selective breeding within the species (callosum has been awarded at least as recently as 2012).

If the best plants available in your greenhouse today, (flattest, widest, biggest, darkest, whatever criteria you are interested in) are Pair O'Jacs and callosum, you back-cross for yet another generation, precisely because you won't get just another callosum but something very different. If the best plants in your greenhouse in about 1910 were Holdenii and callosum, you made the first Gloriosum cross for the same reason.

 

[troy]

Red vini maudie x charelsworthii (schaetzchen) yours maybe with something else but if it is a red vini maud x charles it is the best I've ever seen worthy of an award

 

[Ozpaph]

cant see the 'raisins' .
Looks like a charlie hybrid.

 

[NYEric]

I don't think so.

 

[SlipperFan]

Luscious color!