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Question on Compatability When Breeding Complex Paphs

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paphreek

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I have a plant that I am considering breeding with. One parent of the plant is Pacific Shamrock, and I am considering crossing another Green/Gold complex onto it. Will a plant with more ancestors in common with Pacific Shamrock be more likely to breed with the plant? I am considering Kay Rinaman, which has no common ancestors in the most recent generations. I am also considering Valime or Lalime, which have a common ancestor (Paph La Honda) "woven" into the family tree in several spots.

Does this common ancestry make any difference in the viability of a cross, ie whether it will take in the first place and whether it will produce a reasonable amount of healthy embryos? I know there are no guarantees, but I am looking to increase the odds of a successful cross. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks. :)
 

Roy

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Ok, an interesting question you raise. My thoughts, I would keep away from using similar back ground parent if possible when breeding any orchid or animal because of the " in breeding factor " occuring. Not to say that you will not get a pod but the lack of fertile seed harvested is distinctly possible. I relate it to the selfing of a hybrid that has multiple plants in its ancestory. Rarely does anything good come from the cross. YES, there have been some noteable exceptions & I think you may have raised P. Hellas as an example or were they different Hellas' outcrossed ?? I study and follow the practice of assessing each plant and the desired qualities of each I would like to have in a flower, ie features of one that will enhance the other or more simple, improve a color, shape, size or stem length in a flower. The compatability of the parent chosen to make these corrections will not be known till flowering but thats all part of breeding, knowledge and luck.
 

paphreek

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I don't think inbreeding will be a problem as La Honda is a parent of Lalime and is a great, great grandparent on both sides of Pacific Shamrock. Both Kay Rinaman and Lalime have the flower characteristics I'm looking to add.

After further looking at the breeding history of both flowers, I've noticed that Lalime has only 10 F1 offspring and 13 total progeny, while Kay Rinaman has 52 F1 offspring and 217 total progeny. Based on this data, it would appear as though Kay Rinaman would be the more prolific breeder.
 

paphioland

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Shouldn't be a problem. Also if you can see which clones were made to use the common ancestor than it is no problem at all. I would stay away from similar "lines" if possible. Does that make sense? If different clonal plants were used in the backround to make the hybrid that is the common ancestor there is no inbreeding at all.
However, whether the cross will be good or not is influenced by your experience, knowledge, eye for quality and what you are shooting for.
 

paphioland

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In my opinion the cross has a good chance of taking to answer your question more specifically. Probably about 50% or more on a fresh flower.
 

PaphMadMan

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Speaking just from a general plant breeding and genetics background, not from any specific experience or knowledge of paph breeding...

Common ancestry should be good in terms of fertility if there is any tendency for the ancestral species to not be inter-fertile, but most complex paphs are SO complex that you really can't predict what percentage comes from any species in the background. And unless you know of specific infertile combinations that heavily affect the ancestry of the cross you want to make I wouldn't worry about it. Every generation of breeding automatically selects for fertility, so I doubt it really makes any difference.

Inbreeding is not really an issue at all unless the same CLONE has appeared in the last 2 generations or multiple times in the ancestry on both sides. And in humans for example, first cousin breeding is usually perfectly healthy and higher than average fertility.

Looking at the number of times that a grex has been registered as a parent gives you some idea of how desirable a parent people have judged it to be and how fertile it is, but unless you know specific clones involved even that may be meaningless.

I'd say, once you have done what research you can, trust your instincts as to what parents will make a cross that meets your goals. Try your chosen plants as both pod and pollen parents, keep good records, and don't give up on a particular parent or cross until it has failed several times.

Good luck...

Kirk
 

slippertalker

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In analyzing a prospective cross, it is important to compare comparable matches. In your examples, Paph Kay Rinaman is both a prolific and successful breeder and has been often used due to availability and fertility. That would be the easiest option to use compared to the other choices. That cross should be quite good..........Green/yellows are improving vastly with the lastest from OZ.

The path of more difficult genetic matchups is often less successful but can also give unforseen improvements. It depends whether you have the time and space to experiment. If you are looking for commercial viability or something adventurous but not fertile, that is always the choice.
 

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