Prime Agra New vs. Old

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ScottMcC said:
So far, the majority of the plants I have in new primeagra are doing great. My Phrag Cape Sunset seedling is struggling, but it got a pretty bad fungal infection that I'm not sure can be attributed to the difference between new and old primeagra. interestingly enough, that one was purchased from Ray's store.

anyway, here's my thoughts about Lance's observation of increased salt content with the new vs old. I think it's occuring due to the increased evaporation rate with the new stuff. Much like the ocean becomes salty because the water can evaporate, leaving the salt behind, the primeagra becomes salty when the water evaporates. The reason this doesn't happen with the old primeagra is that the evaporation is slow enough that the plant can take up the salts quickly enough to compensate, but such is not the case for the new stuff.

anyway, it's just a thought, and I don't have evidence to back it up, but it seems to make sense to me.

by the way, I follow Ray's directions on his website pretty closely, but as a result of all the visible salt buildup I have been getting on the new primeagra I've started using fresh water flushes and 75 ppm N MSU fertilizer instead of 125 ppm N.

You may be correct about the evaporation. I wonder what the ppm increase in my original soaking is from? It is not due to evaporation as I soak in a closed container. If indeed you must use less fertilizer to compensate then it becomes difficult to have both new PA and old PA pots on your bench.

I wonder which minerals in the fertilizer solution are crystallizing out of solution? If some minerals fall out of solution and some stay dissolved that would screw up the nutrient balance ratios over time. This would then require heavier and more frequent flushing of the pots.
 
My Culligan RO system makes 33 gallons a day and the initial TDS reading was at or below that of Candace's. I believe the highest capacity (at least for the model we bought) is 50 gallons a day.

I would expect a higher finished TDS for a unit that is capable of nearly 100 gallons a day. Compromises must be made somewhere to get that capacity.
 
Wow! I should add Slippertalk to my regular reading routine!

There are SO many different subjects in the thread, it's hard to address them all.

The new PrimeAgra wicks better than the old primarily due to the more regular surface, which creates better contact area.

The more uniform size and shape results in more air flow, so that does, indeed, result in greater evaporation. I do not water daily (especially this time of year), but my greenhouse humidity is very good, so the surface of the medium in my pots is likely to stay more moist, keeping the nutrients in solution where they can be absorbed by the plants, and making the mineral content less saturated.

The new PrimeAgra does NOT have more of a wet film at the surface than the old stuff. It's actually probably less the case, as the old stuff had some highly densified areas at the surface that could get wet and yet not absorb the water. The new stuff absorbs and releases much more thoroughly.

That difference in absorption/release properties may be contributing to the observed surface mineral buildup, as by contrast, more minerals were "trapped" in the old stuff, which I guess could lead to chemistry issues over time (a la Dr. Wang's comments on diatomite in Orchids magazine). The improved wicking can also contribute, as was noted in the thread. The initial free mineral content from the manufacturing process is also probably higher in the new material because of the improved absorption, but probably releases better. I still rinse the crap out of it before use - and always have.

I have mixed the old and the new, with no issues.

I've been using the new PrimeAgra for a couple of years now - repotting everything last August - and have not noticed a mortality rate any different than with the old. I believe I have, on the other hand noticed better growth and blooming, presumably due to better - and more stable - water and nutrient availability. That, of course, could just be "wishful thinking" (OK, wishful observation), but my wife has also commented on it, and she doesn't grow plants.

Some responses to sub-threads:

RO water SHOULD, if your system is working right, give you at-most single-digit dissolved solids. The capacity of the system is irrelevant, as the components are different to accommodate that.

TDS meters are notoriously inaccurate, as they are really just electrical conductivity (EC) meters that have a built-in conversion factor that displays the output in parts per million (ppm) of total dissolved solids (TDS). The trouble is that the relationship between the conductivity of a solution and its content varies not only by the concentration of the dissolved ions, but is also based upon the charge and mobility of the dissolved ionic species. That means that in our case, the "standard" conversion factor cannot be standard at all, and actually should be different for every fertilizer and water supply. I have an article about that on my "Free Info" page, if anyone's interested.

Calculating the TDS of the MSU fertilizer in RO, at 150 ppm N, your meter should see something in the neighborhood of 425 ppm TDS. My two meters gave me about 600 and 750.

There's a LOT more to good culture than just the medium used, and one must observe and adjust accordingly as something changes. Even under the worst conditions, I have never heard of anyone killing an otherwise healthy plant in a week. I'd almost bet that submerging a pot in water for a week wouldn't have that quick of a kill.

I always respond to emails I get, assuming they have a subject line that is intelligible and pertinent, or from someone I know. Blake posted some pretty nasty commentary both at Orchidboard and Slippertalk, and I honestly do not recall getting any emails from him on the subject. Ignoring things like that is simply not my way. I'm truly sorry that the communication disconnect happened (and no doubt soured him on my apparent attitude), as I would have liked to investigate the situation with him, both to try to fix the problem and and to potentially learn more myself!

As was stated, so far Blake has been the only one that has expressed problems with the new material, but do keep in mind that folks can express discontent not only with their mouths, but with their feet (or wallets) as well, and just not buy the stuff. Based upon the rate at which it is moving out of my warehouse and the emails I get on the subject, there does not appear to be a widespread problem.
 
Ray, thanks for your input. Some people really want the "old" primeagra back. Is it even possible to get it anymore? Would you consider bringing back the old primeagra again? Something to consider...
 
Ray, glad you are here, we need your input about your product.

Ray said:
Wow! I should add Slippertalk to my regular reading routine!

Yes you should. :poke:

The new PrimeAgra wicks better than the old primarily due to the more regular surface, which creates better contact area.

Is more really better?

The new PrimeAgra does NOT have more of a wet film at the surface than the old stuff. It's actually probably less the case, as the old stuff had some highly densified areas at the surface that could get wet and yet not absorb the water. The new stuff absorbs and releases much more thoroughly.

I don't know what is happening to the surface of each pebble inside the pot but the surface of the new PA does in fact have a wet film of water where the old does not. It is visible in side by side pots. I'm not saying that is a problem but I can see it.

That difference in absorption/release properties may be contributing to the observed surface mineral buildup, as by contrast, more minerals were "trapped" in the old stuff, which I guess could lead to chemistry issues over time (a la Dr. Wang's comments on diatomite in Orchids magazine).

If as you guess the old PA after a period of time will have "chemistry issues" that would indicate that at some time in the future there would be problems?

It seems that the new PA may have the same "chemisty issues" but they show up much sooner?

Please elaborate on this.

The initial free mineral content from the manufacturing process is also probably higher in the new material because of the improved absorption, but probably releases better. I still rinse the crap out of it before use - and always have.

What is the "free mineral content"? Do you have an analysis?

I thought PrimeAgra was an inert ceramic like material. I'm surprised a product manufactured for horticulture would need to we rinsed at all before use.

RO water SHOULD, if your system is working right, give you at-most single-digit dissolved solids. The capacity of the system is irrelevant, as the components are different to accommodate that.

Unless the system is designed to remove slightly less mineral content to reduce the volume of waste water which also increases the total daily output.

Calculating the TDS of the MSU fertilizer in RO, at 150 ppm N, your meter should see something in the neighborhood of 425 ppm TDS. My two meters gave me about 600 and 750.

I'm curious what your two meters read with a standard NaCl solution?
How do you measure the MSU fertilizer to get the 150 ppm solution?

There's a LOT more to good culture than just the medium used, and one must observe and adjust accordingly as something changes. Even under the worst conditions, I have never heard of anyone killing an otherwise healthy plant in a week. I'd almost bet that submerging a pot in water for a week wouldn't have that quick of a kill.

I agree with you about this. But if we assume what Blake says is true, something killed his plants quickly when he used the new PA. Perhaps there is a problem with the "free mineral content" that you mentioned needs to be rinsed out?

I always respond to emails I get, assuming they have a subject line that is intelligible and pertinent, or from someone I know. Blake posted some pretty nasty commentary both at Orchidboard and Slippertalk, and I honestly do not recall getting any emails from him on the subject. Ignoring things like that is simply not my way. I'm truly sorry that the communication disconnect happened (and no doubt soured him on my apparent attitude), as I would have liked to investigate the situation with him, both to try to fix the problem and and to potentially learn more myself!

That's what we are here for. No censorship on this forum. (spam filters are censorship after all ;) )

Blake made his problems known and because I think the old PA is a perfect growing media I started this thread to try to learn about the new PA.
Thanks for joining in.

In your defense Ray I remember having communication problems during that time period with you also, but I doubt you were at fault as I was trying to buy something from you.

As was stated, so far Blake has been the only one that has expressed problems with the new material, but do keep in mind that folks can express discontent not only with their mouths, but with their feet (or wallets) as well, and just not buy the stuff. Based upon the rate at which it is moving out of my warehouse and the emails I get on the subject, there does not appear to be a widespread problem.

You can't use sales volume as a product qualification. Just because a lot of people start buying a product does not mean it is good, it only means that it has gotten good advertising. Look at Viox, how about all the diet pills that fly out of a warehouse also.

So what do you suppose killed all of Blake's plants that were planted into the new PrimeAgra?
 
Ray, you sell alot of this stuff because you have regular customers that are offered no other option. And in all honesty I dont believe any "scientific" results coming from the salesman's mouth. I know you are a highly intelligent and educated person, but you are a salesman and no salesman would say anything bad about their own product.
 
I'm sorry you have such a narrow view, Blake.

Please understand that this is not a significant source of income for me, as I have a "real job" that supports my family, and the home-based business is based entirely upon me buying stuff I want in wholesale quantities and reselling the excess to others that care to participate.

If First Rays was to evaporate tomorrow, I would do and say nothing different.
 
Candace, the old stuff is no longer manufactured.

Lance, let me see if I can wade through your series of questions/comments:

I believe more wicking is better, as it provides a more uniform environment throughout the pot.

The appearance of droplets between medium particles and the pot wall does not necessarily indicate the presence of a surface film on the medium. Those "wet spots" are simply places where surface tension is holding water droplets, which happens between particles, and between particles and the pot wall with all types of media.

Long-term "chemistry issues" arise when the medium absorbs, but does not re-release chemicals freely. My guess is that there is nothing that has a truly 100% in-and-out set of properties. If anything, the new PrimeAgra is better at releasing the absorbed solution, so should go longer before issues may appear, if at all. The maintenance of a constant moisture supply keeps the ions in solution, hence more mobile, so the buildup is lessened. it's when media are allowed to dry between waterings that the problem really comes to a fore. (I have a paph still in the same pot of "old" material since 2000, and I see no issues.)

PrimeAgra is a 100% ceramic product, and by itself is inert. I don't know for sure, but I can think of a couple of potential sources of the "free" material in the virgin product:
  1. When the pellets are done with their firing cycle, they are quenched to rapidly cool them and to keep down dust. It is doubtful they use pure water to do so.
  2. When manufacturing any clay body, binders are used to shape and hold the particles together before firing. Those binders can be pretty complex formulations of organic- and inorganic compounds. If properly fired (time, temperature, atmosphere), the organics are decomposed and the inorganics should oxidize, but the process may not be complete throughout each and every particle and even within a particle, so there might be some extractable residues.
For what it's worth, I have not observed any issues related to that, other than appearance, although I'll acknowledge that it did concern me at first.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking about the fertilizer concentration. Bill Argo, the inventor of the "MSU" formula, recommended 100-150 ppm N; I shoot for the middle of the range. The fertilizer bag label gives the EC contribution of the fertilizer at various concentrations. By comparing my TDS meter readings for a known conductivity standard to that of a known fertilizer solution (hence a known N concentration), I developed a calibration curve. At that point I can use the TDS meters to manage the concentration, but shoot for the "corrected" values, not the true values.

I had forgotten about the rash of PC problems! I lost a bunch of emails then, among other stuff. If that's when Blake tried contacting me, it's no wonder I appear to have ignored him! In his shoes, I'd have been pissed too.

I agree that sales do not directly correlate to value, but repeat sales usually are.

Without knowing all of the details, I would not venture a guess as to why Blake's plants died. It is just hard for me to imagine that simply switching the medium would have such an impact, as I have not seen any such problems, nor heard of them from anyone else using the stuff. I have planted tropicals and herbs in the stuff straight from the bag with no soaking or rinsing, and they have shown no problems. In non-s/h mode, I have done the same with catts and encyclias - again, with no issues - so it seems doubtful that there is a "toxicity" issue there. Last August I repotted almost 1000 plants into the new stuff, some from organic media, some from old PrimeAgra, and some from other experiments, and I have not had a lick of trouble.
 
I am sorry if this has been addressed somewhere before, but I cannot find it this morning. Has anyone done a pure water study and then evaluated the residue that accumulated at the surface? Maybe the residue is totally inert and other than appearance of no consequence to the plants?
 
Candace said:
Lance, my R.O. unit's output is that low. I was told by Culligan that anything over that amount means it's not operating properly. Either the membrane needs replacing, the filters need changing or the amount of refuse water isn't enough and is backing up the system. I actually noted this when you mentioned yours measured around 18 and was going to say something, but forgot.

I replace my filters etc. when I notice it going about 3 or 4, which usually works out to be about every 8 months or so. My membrane lasts for a couple of years.

Concerning the ppm output of RO units......

It seems final out put can depend on the content of the source water.

I found this piece of information:

"If you are using a TDS or conductivity meter to monitor the performance of an RO membrane, then the measured value should drop by at least a factor of 10 from the starting tap water. So, for example, if the tap water reads 231 ppm, then the RO water should be less than 23 ppm. In many cases, it will drop much more than that. Less of a drop than a factor of 10 indicates a problem with the RO membrane."
 
Anyone have any experience with the forced-water type of RO? They use a pump to push the water through the membrane, resulting in zero waste water.
 
Ray said:
Anyone have any experience with the forced-water type of RO? They use a pump to push the water through the membrane, resulting in zero waste water.
Zero or Near Zero waste? I would think some water would have to be used to flush away the waste products at some point or the membrane would become clogged quite quickly.
 
Yeah, that's not too long ago. But, you probably use a lot more water than I do/many more plants. My filters may last longer simply due to lower useage.
 
Some new thoughts and observations......

I have been monitoring the ppm of the pot reservoir water daily for a while.
The new PrimeAgra consistently has a higher ppm than the old even though both old and new get the exact same water and fertilizer applications.

Even when no fertilizer is applied the ppm levels increase between flushing the pots. This would seem to indicate the media is releasing salts into solution? Perhaps PrimeAgra is not actually inert and does slowly dissolve?

A reading I took today on the little kovachii pots:

old PA = 225 ppm
new PA = 353 ppm

Fertilizer has been applied daily at 250 ppm (total).

I suspect that PrimeAgra may actually have a cation exchange capacity (CEC) and is not inert in that respect. The new PA may have a much higher CEC and thus it is accumulating and holding minerals which are later leached out at higher levels than the old PA.
 
gonewild said:
Some new thoughts and observations......


A reading I took today on the little kovachii pots:

old PA = 225 ppm
new PA = 353 ppm

Fertilizer has been applied daily at 250 ppm (total).

Lance,

Just out of curiuosty, and it may be too soon to tell, but are you seeing any difference in the growth of the seedlings in the old Pa vs new Pa?

charlie c
 
charlie c said:
Lance,

Just out of curiuosty, and it may be too soon to tell, but are you seeing any difference in the growth of the seedlings in the old Pa vs new Pa?

charlie c

It is too early to tell. But I have seen some problems with the new PA on some seedlings. I definitely like the old PA better. The new PA is a completely different media.

I won't say the problems are caused by the new PA but they are a result of it being different from the old PA. The new PA is going to need a lot more flushing than the old PA to keep the salts from becoming toxic.

It is not working well with the methods I use to water and fertilize my seedlings because it accumulates salts so much faster than the old.

As you can see from the numbers I posted the old PA maintains the ppm of the fertilizer solution or slightly less while the new PA ppm level is climbing.
If the new PA is going to accumulate salts and or hold nutrients by CEC it makes it difficult to use hydroponic nutrient practices.

This is like New Coca Cola and the old Coke Classic. New Coke might taste great if you had never tasted the old Coke.
 

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