Phragmipedium Sedenii

Discussion in 'Taxonomy' started by Secundino, Jun 2, 2015.

Slippertalk Orchid Forum

Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:

  1. Jun 2, 2015 #1

    Secundino

    Secundino

    Secundino

    Adorable Stud

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    2,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Spain
    I'm preparing a new entry in my blog with a short text about Phragmipedium Sedenii (Cypripedium Sedenii), a plant I got recently as a surprise birthday present. I've always known - don't ask me where I read it some 30 years ago! - that Sedenii is also a natural hybrid (x sedenii); now I've been researching and I just don't find a prove of this, though many pages repeat that it is a natural hybrid, there are no references to the original description (Reichenbach fil, Rolfe, Schlechter)!
    There is also little info about John Seden besides wiki and Hortus Veitchii; does anybody know where I can find a photograph and some further details about the 'father' of Phrag. Sedenii?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Jun 3, 2015 #2

    Rob Zuiderwijk

    Rob Zuiderwijk

    Rob Zuiderwijk

    www.slipperiana.info

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    232
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Hi,

    Hmmm. I've never heard about Phrag. Sedenii being a natural hybrid. You say that many pages repeat that it is a natural hybrid. Can you name one or more of these pages.

    On the other hand I've a feeling that I know what you're talking about. But before I start talking none sense, let see which pages you mean. There are lot of knowledgable people on this forum and I'm sure that together we can figure this out.

    All the best,

    Rob
     
  3. Jun 3, 2015 #3

    Secundino

    Secundino

    Secundino

    Adorable Stud

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    2,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Spain
    Here:
    http://www.orchidspecies.com/phragsedeni.htm

    though if I try to find the cited reviews - those which are digitalized - Orchid Review, Gardeners Chronicle, there is no evidence for this cross being a natural hybrid.

    and here (very strange):
    http://collections.si.edu/search/results.htm?q=record_ID:nmnhbotany_2219986

    But hold on, I'll find some more (I'm not going to show all those not scientific copy-and-paste-pages !) As I strongly feel this is an early copy-and-paste artifact!

    Tropicos, IPNI and rhs list Phragmipedium (Selenipedium, Cypripedium) x sedenii (written as natural hybrid) without mentioning location(s).
     
  4. Jun 4, 2015 #4

    phraggy

    phraggy

    phraggy

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    North West England
    To me Sedeni has always been a hybrid between longifolium (pollen parent) and schlimii.

    Ed
     
  5. Jun 4, 2015 #5

    NYEric

    NYEric

    NYEric

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    47,519
    Likes Received:
    68
    Location:
    New York City Apartment
    Yes Sedenii is a hybrid, but a natural one..?!:eek:
     
  6. Jun 4, 2015 #6

    Rob Zuiderwijk

    Rob Zuiderwijk

    Rob Zuiderwijk

    www.slipperiana.info

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    232
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Hi again,

    I've been looking into some of the pages you mention, and my humble opinion is that you misinterpret the way the names are written.

    If you check the names index IPNI and search for the genus Cypripedium or Selenipedium for example, you will see a list that contains a lot of names which have the '×' in them. If you do some researching on (some of) these names you’ll find that most of these names are synonyms for Paphiopedilum or Phragmipedium (man-made) hybrids. Reason for this is that in the old days it was customary that all hybrid names were written with the '×' in-between the (notho)genus name and the hybrid name, and new hybrids were often described in the same way new discovered species were.

    Anyway, that is what I think is the explanation for your confusion.

    A small note. As far as I understand the official way to write a natural hybrid name is with the '×' connected to the name, as in Phragmipedium ×roethianum. When one wants to indicate a cross between two entities one uses the '×' as a separate character, like in Phragmipedium longifolium × Phragmipedium schlimii.

    All the best,

    Rob
     
  7. Jun 5, 2015 #7

    John M

    John M

    John M

    Orchid Addict

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    7,113
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Hamilton, Ontario - Canada
    Hmmm - good info. Thanks Rob!
     
  8. Jun 5, 2015 #8

    Secundino

    Secundino

    Secundino

    Adorable Stud

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    2,323
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Spain
    Thank you. Though I was not really confused by the name or how it is written - there are still lots of non-scientific pages (mostly german based) which mention Phrag. Sedenii as a natural hybrid and I wonder where this special part of information has its scientific (?) origin. Schlechter in 'Orchideen' (1914) just mentions it as normal hybrid - that could be a strong hint that a (false?) natural origin was postulated later.
    Modern indexes should write according to actual taxonomic rules, regardless of later changes (Cypripedium, Selenipedium, Uropedium until actual Phragmipedium); my 'confusion' is not taxonomic - I wonder who has stated for the first time this cross being a naturally occurring colombian hybrid. This paper is the one I'm searching for ... if it exists.
    I doubt it because while searching I haven't found any modern reference of Phrag. xsedenii in Colombia. But the absence of this information is no direct evidence of course.
     

Share This Page

arrow_white