Phragmipedium exstaminodium

Discussion in 'Taxonomy' started by Phrag-Plus, Nov 29, 2008.

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  1. Nov 29, 2008 #1

    Phrag-Plus

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    I would like to bring back some interrogation about Phragmipedium exstaminodium,
    I did read an old but very interesting thread and discussion concerning the caudatum alliance… I did miss that one too... And I would like to know what you are thinking about this specie now.

    I did read on that thread, than some of you are considering extaminodium as a mutation of popowii...? It was my first opinion and I was convinced abut that too. But when it blooms two years ago my opinion did change....
    There is much more difference in the flower than just the lack of the staminode...

    Exstaminodium pouches opening are rounder and wider at the junction of petals. The petals are wide like ribons and hold horizontally looks like it protecting the pouch opening. Petals and ventral are much shorter.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The popowii pouches are more oval and thinner at the junction of petals. The petals are thinner too and hold vertically like shoulders each side of the pouch and they are very long. The dorsal and ventral are long.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Did anybody have pictures of that specie for comparaison...?
     
  2. Nov 29, 2008 #2

    Rick

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    Earl Bailey who owns Orchid Babies in Birmingham Alabama has a couple of awarded extaminodiums. I believe he has 3 adult siblings and there are now selfings available from 2 of them. I saw one of the adults in bloom about 3 or 4 years ago, and recent photos. The petals are very long (as long as the popowii I've seen). They are beautifully dark, and the sepals and pouch also seemed somewhat larger than popowii.

    You may need to look for identifiers other than flower metrics to consider this a different species. I think it is geographically isolated (southern Mexico in Chiapas highlands). I don't know if anyone has done any chromosome counts or DNA analysis.
     
  3. Nov 29, 2008 #3

    Phrag-Plus

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    Thanks Rick, Yes I’ve seen some photos of those plants from Orchid Babies.
    And it is that why I thought it was a popowii mutation in the past too.

    Those pictures show me than they looks much more like a popowii than my exstaminodium. And what it’s confusing me, and make me wonder is the description of the awarded plant too, they mention than some flowers did have some part or partial staminodes???

    When they describe this specie, they said than “In the population of Chiapas the staminode was missing all together. And it was clear that this was a stable characteristic” and “ the missing staminode, which is a completely stable feature of the plants in Chiapas”

    When I’ve seen mine 2 years ago I realize than it was not looking like popowii at all it is very different and don’t have any part of staminode. But in the same time I don’t have any other source to compare with it. It is that why I did post that thread to see if I can have some more information or confirmation.

    Now, I’m wondering if there is some possibility than some popowii without staminode could be identifying as exstaminodium ...?
     
  4. Nov 29, 2008 #4

    Rick

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    This idea is more for speculation than anything else, but I am reminded of a reptile example that may be appropriate.

    There is a population of whiptail lizards in New Mexico that are parthenogenic, and considered a novel species. It turns out that this parthenogenic population is the result of hybridization between to adjacent populations of 2 different whiptail species that have different ploidy.

    The parthenogenic population is self supporting and does not breed back to either of the original species so there are no intergrades (based on external metrics)to either of the parent species. I have read that there is a similar population of a parthenogenic species of night lizard in South America.

    So the development of a different reproductive strategy to specialize in novel habitats (or ranges) may not be that novel of a strategy in the development of new species. Could it be possible that exstaminodium is a parthenogenic hybrid of the standard caudatum and popowii??

    I guess whether by hybridization or random mutation, a new species is a new species at some point. Someone always feels obliged to draw the line somewhere. Reproductive isolation with development of a distinct population border is the primary reason to be a species. Self fertilization and range (so far as known) are good reasons for exstaminodium to be a species rather than variety. However, if the range of exstaminodium is found to overlap with popowii then we may classify it as something else.:sob:
     
  5. Nov 29, 2008 #5

    Scooby5757

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    It has to breed true, right? So if you had a popowii without a staminode and selfed it, most likely the progeny would have a staminode. Whereas with exstaminodium all the progeny have no staminode like the parents.
     
  6. Nov 30, 2008 #6

    Phrag-Plus

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    Hi Rick, I do understand and agreeing with you than flower metrics is not enough to recognise new specie. And I’m absolutely agreeing with you about what species and evolution are... It is very interesting and brings lots of wondering...

    Is it a parthenogenic hybrid? When I saw my plant in bloom, especially the way the petals are joining far from the column forming a shield over the pouch opening I found than it was very different and interesting characteristic. I did bloom many others plants from that group and their primary hybrids but never saw anything like that before.

    If there is not much or clear differences between popowii and exstaminodium, what will happen if we find one popowii in Guatemala without staminode. This is a possibility, it happen sometimes in breeding. We are not speculating about overlapping range of the population now just a weird popowii in its population. But I’m wondering witch name is going to be put on the tag?

    I would like to have more information’s and pictures regarding exstaminodium. From now I’m comparing only 2 or 3 plants in collection with the describe population.
    I may speculate but it is the only way I can use to try to understand why:
    1) The literatures mention than in the Chiapas colony, the missing stamiode is stable even under artificial propagation.
    2) Why some exstaminodium in cultivation did show part of or partial staminode now?
    3) Why they look more like popowii than mine?
    4) Why they get recognition and awards if they don’t show the basic characteristic of the lacking of staminode?

    I’m just tried to understand....
     
  7. Nov 30, 2008 #7

    Phrag-Plus

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    Sound's right to me, but my wondering is why some exstaminodium do have parts or partial staminodes now in cultivation?
     
  8. Nov 30, 2008 #8

    likespaphs

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    are you saying that there are exstaminodium with partial staminodes in cultivation? if so, maybe those are 'freaks'... or weird exstaminodium?

    i've heard that they typically self pollinate. is this true?

    any way to get a photo of the staminode area?
     
  9. Dec 1, 2008 #9

    Phrag-Plus

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    Yes it's a self pollinate specie...
    And the description found in the AQ+
    3 of them don't mention any presence of staminodes or part of it....?
    Chiapas CBR/AOS (June 1992)
    Dorsal: 2.5 x 13.0
    Pétale: 2.1 x 48.5
    Synsepale: 4.4 x 11.0
    Pouch: 3.0 x 5.6

    Windy Hill HCC/AOS (April 2005)
    Dorsal: 2.7 x 14.1
    Petals: 1.6 x 64.5
    Synsepale: 3.7 x 12.4
    Pouch: 2.5 x 5.4

    ORCHIDbabies Gandalf CHM/AOS (May 2005)
    Dorsal: 2.5 x 16.0
    Petals: 1.7 x 73.0
    Synsepale: 4.3 x 14.5
    Pouch: 2.4 x 6.0
    With acerose staminode 1mm x 5mm between visible pollinia (identified by H. Koopowitz.)

    Windy Hill AM/AOS (April 2006)
    Dorsal: 2.0 x 15.7
    Petals: 1.8 x 72.0
    Synsepale: 3.9 x 13.4
    Pouch: 2.7 x 5.8

    ORCHIDbabies Wotan (May 2006)
    Dorsal: 2.8 x 14.5
    Petals: 1.8 x 60.0
    Synsepale: 5.0 x 12.6
    Pouch: 2.5 x 6.0
    “Our flowers show partially develop staminode “ (Identify by H. Koopwitz and P. Cribb)
     
  10. Dec 1, 2008 #10

    SlipperFan

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    Interesting discussion. Will it ever be resolved?
     
  11. Dec 1, 2008 #11

    Rick

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    I think the Windy Hill AM plant is related to the Orchid Babies plants too.

    Do you have similar flower descriptions for awarded popowii?
     
  12. Dec 1, 2008 #12

    Phrag-Plus

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    To name a few...

    Popowii ‘Hong Yangtze’ AM/AOS (April 2005) , Orchid limited
    Dorsal : 3.3 x 17.5 cm
    Petals: 1.1 x 78.7
    Synsepals: 5.4 x 15.5
    Pouch: 3.4 x 6.1

    ‘Hipp’ AM/AOS, Windsong Orchids
    Dorsal : 2.5 x 17.0 cm
    Petals: 1.4 x 70.0
    Synsepals: 4.5 x 16.5
    Pouch: 2.5 x 6.5
     
  13. Dec 1, 2008 #13

    Phrag-Plus

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    :confused:
     
  14. Dec 10, 2008 #14

    Leo Schordje

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    Rick - I enjoy these discussions, a speculation has been made and I thought I should weigh in. I don't mean to bust anyones chops - BUT - The Windy Hill plants did not come from Orchid Babies. I am not at liberty to disclose all the details, but Windy Hill received several flasks from me, the flasks came from seed pods collected from Phrag extaminodia plants that were originally in the collection of Sterling Dickenson of San Cristobol, Chiapas, Mexico. An un-named Mid-West orchid person actually did the importing, and asked me to handle the seed pods. He kept the plants. When the plants first bloomed he almost tossed them for their defective flowers, he had thought he was given popowii and did not know about exstaminodia.

    Sterling Dickenson was a retired physician living in Chiapas, whose garden was entirely landscaped with native trees and plants. Orchids were a passion of Sterling's. He found Cypripedium irapeanum and other rare slippers in the hills there.

    Point is I know fact certain Windy Hill's Phrag exstaminodia never lived in the southern US, and don't have anything to do with Orchid Babies. They trace directly to Chiapas Mexico. They were from a separate importation that happened at a different time. This all happened almost 20 or 25 years ago. Marilyn is one of the few growers talented enough that she got her plants to survive from flask. I produced about 25 flasks, and to my knowledge at best there are maybe 10 plants surviving of all these seedlings. Good news is some of those 10 survivors went on to produce more progeny. Marilyn is one of the few to keep this species going long term in cultivation. She is a great grower.
    Leo
     
  15. Dec 11, 2008 #15

    SlipperFan

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    Thanks Leo. You should write a little history book on orchids, and not lose the information to posterity. You have the knowledge and experience to do so.
     
  16. Dec 11, 2008 #16

    Rick

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    I didn't say that Marilyn got her plants from Earl. But there is a reference on his website that his 2 awarded adult plants are related to another awarded clone that he doesn't own (and Windy Hill/Marilyn's seem likely).

    He does allot of sharing with Marilyn, so I was guessing he got his original plants from Marilyn (who got hers from you apparently).

    Marilyn and Earl get around to allot of the same shows in the south. So I wouldn't be too sure that Extstaminodiums haven't been circulating around down here.

    Anyway there are not allot of awarded exstaminodiums, so we could conjecture what Earl's plants are a sibling too.
     
  17. Dec 11, 2008 #17

    Leo Schordje

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    Sorry, I get protective of Marilyn, she doesn't always get the credit for her expertise in Phrags and orchids generally that she deserves. I didn't consider that the relationship to Earl might have been the other way, she supplying him. That is certainly is possible. Marilyn is one of the few that really makes a point of keeping the rare species she has going, long term. She doesn't try to have one of everything. She knows what she can grow and tries to limit herself to keeping those species going. You should see her display pots of Mexipedium xerophyticum.
     
  18. Dec 11, 2008 #18

    NYEric

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    See, now you're just tempting me to make a trip to visit her, then she'll hate you forever! :p
     
  19. Dec 11, 2008 #19

    Rick

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    I totally agree with you Leo.

    She is very soft spoken and modest in person, but her results definitely speak for themselves. I enjoy my visits with her at the Memphis show, and I have always done well with her plants. Her OD article on phrag culture should be at the top of the list of every phrag growers first review list.


    Earl has done well for himself too over a relatively short time (especially in the flasking realm). Plus he's ravenous to learn new things, and try things out, which is why I think he works well with Marilyn.
     
  20. Dec 12, 2008 #20

    Phrag-Plus

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    I'm aggreing with you Dot,
    thanks Leo, those details are very interesting I'm learning a lot on that forum...
     

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