Phrag. Identification help

Discussion in 'Taxonomy' started by Michael Bonda, Mar 8, 2020.

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  1. Mar 8, 2020 #1

    Michael Bonda

    Michael Bonda

    Michael Bonda

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    Hello

    I picked up this Phrag at a local orchid show (Tampa) from a local nursery (Palmer Orchids). It was labeled as Paph William Amber which of course it is not.

    I am wondering if it is a besseae primary hybrid
    with lindleyanum = Andean Fire since red and wide low petals (or with sargentianum = Mem Dick Clememts).

    It is a rather compact growth (leaf length 10inches/25cm) and medium flower size (3x3 inches/7.5x7.5cm). Yellow in the slipper.

    Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you

    upload_2020-3-7_19-33-55.jpeg
     
  2. Mar 8, 2020 #2

    Michael Bonda

    Michael Bonda

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    upload_2020-3-7_19-35-13.jpeg
     

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  3. Mar 8, 2020 #3

    Michael Bonda

    Michael Bonda

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  4. Mar 8, 2020 #4

    Michael Bonda

    Michael Bonda

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    upload_2020-3-7_19-36-44.jpeg
     

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  5. Mar 8, 2020 #5

    Ray

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    As the grower is local, I suggest you contact them for an answer.
     
  6. Mar 8, 2020 #6

    monocotman

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    I agree with Ray. Ask the grower.
    It doesn’t look like an MDC to me,
    David
     
  7. Mar 8, 2020 #7

    Hien

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    Is the price tag on the leaf what you paid?
    if it is the price I see in the photo, you have the right for the correct name from the seller.
    (some time I do buy plant with dubious name tag, or no name tag , and sometimes seller promise the name after the show, well after the show , as you would guess, how many seller would remember to get you the correct name/tag later !)
    anyway, there are three besseae crosses:
    besseae x lindleyanum= Andean Fire
    besseae x sargentianum=MDM
    besseae x kaieteurum=Rosalie Dixler
    http://slipperorchids.info/phragprimaries/index.html
    By the way I do have a plant I bought from a recent local show here with no name tag, which I die to know the name as well.
    Most peoples who grow orchids for a long time are very careful , either they don't pull the tag out, or when they pull the tag out, they make sure to replace it back properly .
    Beginners at orchid shows or nurseries pull the tags out, and put it back in another pot next to the one they pull out. or they don't even put it back .
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
  8. Mar 8, 2020 #8

    MaxC

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  9. Mar 8, 2020 #9

    Hien

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    interesting, the down turn petals & the 2 lighter areas from the center do remind one of dalessandroi
     
  10. Mar 9, 2020 #10

    Michael Bonda

    Michael Bonda

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    Thanks for the replies. I’ll check with the grower/nursery. The staff at the sales booth told me is was labeled Paph but was Phrag. Wiliam Amber (one letter l) which is not a known phrag. I am not a cultivator just collect and grow so I will just appreciate it as it blooms.
     
  11. Mar 9, 2020 #11

    awesomei

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    Here is my QF Maria, not sure that is what it is???
     

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  12. Mar 9, 2020 #12

    MaxC

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    I am not sure why but there are a lot of misspelled examples of Paph. William Ambler Paphiopedilum rothschildianum x Paphiopedilum wilhelminae as "William Amber" that come up when you search. William Ambler cross was registered in 2001 by Dr. Thomas Ott and bred by Fox Valley. I hope that helps when you speak to the grower. One thing to remember about Phrags. is some nurseries are doing the same thing as we are and buying from a breeder, so information can be lost/distorted by the time it shows up at a show. They may be selling hundreds of Phals for every Phrag so that also adds to lack of accurate information and the link to their website looks to be from 2017 so may not be a bigger mover. Hien also hit on key points that add to possible conclusion. Then you throw it that plants may look slightly and strongly different then other plants of the same cross. I went off of what they were selling on their website of QF Maria, form and coloring looks similar along with branching would strongly point to it being QF Maria.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  13. Mar 9, 2020 #13

    Michael Bonda

    Michael Bonda

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    Thanks again. The lip of the slipper is very yellow, wide and deep with many small red dots that most pics of QF Maria do not have.....
    So far I will call it Phrag unknown.......
     
  14. Mar 9, 2020 #14

    MaxC

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    Yeah, it is hard to exactly say. Two different examples of QF Maria. First picture is from Quintal Farms and second is from Ecuagenera, very different.
     

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    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  15. Mar 9, 2020 #15

    tomkalina

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    The second photo isn't a Phrag. d'alessandroi but rather a hybrid of some sort. Here's a photo of our Phrag. d'alessandroi 'Fox Valley' CHM/AOS. one that was certified by Selby as a comparison..
     

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  16. Mar 9, 2020 #16

    littlefrog

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    Not sure how a knowledgeable vendor can sell a phrag as a paph. They really do look different even as plants. Especially a multifloral paph like William Ambler. Sheesh.
     
  17. Mar 9, 2020 #17

    Michael Bonda

    Michael Bonda

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    I think the Paph label was placed in the phrag pot by a patron. I believe there were Paph William Ambler there before I got to the sales.... the vendor who I asked was just a person at the register since the main vendor was busy.......just a F.U.B.A.R........so the correct Phrag. label identity may be in someone’s Paph pot.......I’ll still ask the main seller at their open greenhouse sales this coming weekend...
     
  18. Mar 9, 2020 #18

    Hien

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    There is no registrated cross with that name Wiliam Amber for phragmipedium !!
    http://apps.rhs.org.uk/horticulturaldatabase/orchidregister/orchidresults.asp
    You may have to bring your plant back to the nursery.
    so the main seller can look at it himself, photos alone might not be enough for him to identify it .
     
  19. Mar 9, 2020 #19

    Hien

    Hien

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    I don't like it when peoples nonchalantly switching tags without a modicum of shame.
    I've seen it happened at shows & orchid nurseries, almost never failed, the persons were someone who are not really orchid growers and would never imagine the pain they inflicts on orchid enthusiasts who will buy the plants later. Sometimes , I waited until they walked away, then corrected the problem myself. Other times if I was not in a compassion moment, I told them to put it back into the right pot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
    littlefrog likes this.
  20. Mar 11, 2020 #20

    NYEric

    NYEric

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    It looks like it has richteri in it. Guessing for now. Ask the vendor.
     

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