Phrag. Cardinale

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philoserenus

the beauty of nature
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looks nice ^^
a Q for you, if u know... what's the morphological difference between cardinal and a sedenii, they both look so much alike its hard to tell them apart.
 

SlipperKing

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It's because these older Phrag hybrids have been toss a round so much that tags are lost, broken and /or switched. One grower pass on divisons and the like don't really know what the hybrids looks like and assumes the name is correct. One plant with many divs of it could have 2, 3 or more names for the same thing. It's a mess to straighten out. I have one plant that I got the name straight because I posted it here! Thank you all!
 

NYEric

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This is absolutely true, but remember some of these crosses are over 100 years old.
Very nice, I'm convinced there's something in your water. I might need to increase the fertilizer % in my trays! :(
 

Leo Schordje

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It's because these older Phrag hybrids have been toss a round so much that tags are lost, broken and /or switched. One grower pass on divisons and the like don't really know what the hybrids looks like and assumes the name is correct. One plant with many divs of it could have 2, 3 or more names for the same thing. It's a mess to straighten out. I have one plant that I got the name straight because I posted it here! Thank you all!
There is a long tale, that I lack the time to tell. The upshot is, floating around the hobby there are many divisions of an old Phrag that we could call 'X', it was imported into the United States from an old English Phrag collection by a firm well known in the 1960's in California. Various divisions of clone 'X' have been submitted for awards under a dozen names and if it is well grown it always scores between 79 and 84 points. (judges recognize quality about the same) Some of the names on divisions of clone 'X' include schlimii 'Wilcox', schlimii 'Birchwood', Cardinale 'Birchwood', Cardinale 'Liisa', Sedenii 'Grace', and quite likely several others. I have divisions of both Cadinale 'Liisa' and Cardinale 'Birchwood' and the longer I grow them, the more convinced I am that they are divisions of the same clone. There are long wordy provenance stories to go with these names and why I make these assertions, but the end result is, this clone 'X', when grown well and shown will get awards, usually between 79 and 84 points.

Dot, I would keep your plant labelled just the way it is, and recognize that it has a long history that involves knock down, drag out fights about its identity between old famous names including R. Wilcox Jones, Stewart's Orchids, Jones and Scully, Rex van Delden, Merrit Huntington, G. R. 'Dick' Clemments, W.W. Wilson and even I got "spanked" (well deserved I might add) as a young one on the lecture circuit by Merrit for voicing an opinion on the matter without good documentation. Someday I will try to put something together, but those who cared the most have long since passed away. One of the old stories that is mostly forgotten now.

You have done a nice job growing the plant. Beautiful
Leo
 

Leo Schordje

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That is interesting. No clonal name. I would not give it a name unless the AOS judges decided it was well enough grown to award it again. If you get a CCM or CCE, you should give it a name that is unique to your collection and could be identified with you. This is because CCM and CCE are awards to the grower and not the plant. If they want to give it a flower quality award, I'm not so sure what to do with that. But hey, what the heck, worst case you add another name to the stack of names.
Leo
Leo
 

John M

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Yup; heard all that myself too. Leo, you can also add Cardinale 'Killworth' AM/AOS to that list.

FYI:
Sedenii (longifolium x schlimii) Always has remnants of the longifolium "horns" on each side of the pouch.

Cardinale (Sedenii x schlimii) Always has a perfect "toilet bowl" shaped lip with no sign of the "horns" at all.

Overall;
Sedenii (being half longifolium), is a bit more drawn out horizontally. Petals are a little more pointed. They're not as wide (proportionately) and they tend to be a little more curled/twisted than Cardinale.

Cardinale (being 3/4 schlimii), is a rounder flower (in all respects), than Sedenii. Petals are shorter with rounder tips. They are wider (proportionately) and they tend to be nearly completely flat; sometimes with a bit of curl upwards.

However, the single most important identification point (between Sedenii and Cardinale), is the pouch shape. Sedenii just can't get away from that little bump on each side of the pouch rim; whereas Cardinale, having a double dose of schlimii, has virtually zero bump on the side of the pouch rim. A Cardinale pouch looks like a good place to sit.....a Sedenii pouch; not so much!
 
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