Phrag Andean Fire

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shakkai

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After a month of waiting... the flower has finally opened today!!



This one is [(besseae ‘Mont Millais’ 4N x besseae ‘Franz Glanz’ 4N) 'Firebird' x lindleyanum]
 

shakkai

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It has been really cool here ( daytime highs below 20C, and nights getting down to 11C ) the past few weeks, so I think that helped the colour quite a lot.

There are two more buds to come too!!
 

shakkai

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Thanks everyone. Yes it was definitely worth the wait. This is the first time this seedling has flowered, so I hope it just gets better from here!
 

GuRu

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Gorgeous - this flower and its colour are very impressive.
But another fact is astounding me. This cross was made with a 4N (tertraploid) hybrid and a 2N species.
It is said that 4N plants are often infertile and crosses can be made if at all between 4N plants. Crosses between 4N and 2N plants are often impossible because the polyploid chromosome set works like a genetic barrier.
Best regards from Germany, rudolf
 

shakkai

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That is what I thought as well, from the basic genetics that I learned through hybridising daylilies. With them, you cannot really cross a tetraploid and a diploid, unless you get really, really lucky and get an unreduced gamete in the diploid. However, when I looked into the breeding program of EYOF, it seems that they used 4N (tetraploid) parents quite a lot. The results of 4N x 2N crosses were 3N (triploid) - I can't say I understand how that works. If anyone knows, please enlighten me! I do remember reading that the resultant 3N offspring were infertile, though. (i.e. 'mules' as Eric alludes to above)
 

shakkai

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Thanks again everyone! The colour appears to be a lot more blue-red than the orange-red I was expecting. It seems to me that the dark hairs on the petals visually alter the underlying base colour.

It is also interesting to me that the staminoid is shaped slightly differently to photos of other Andean Fire's that I have seen. And is definitely more red - with more of those dark little hairs. Just guessing, maybe that is because this is a sterile triploid, so the staminoid is not waxy?

(Basically, the photos I've seen are the ones here, for comparison: http://www.slipperorchids.info/phragprimaries/index.html)

 
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paphlady

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Crossing 4N to 2N is usually not a problem. Most (but not all) 3N are sterile. The reason this flower is much "redder" than most Andean Fire is due to an "extra dose" of besseae. I believe Dean (either on his website or a previous thread) has a really well versed explanation.
 
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Hummm! I did get that besseae Mont Milais x Franz Glanz many years ago from Radcliff orchids, this cross was made at the Eric Young Foundation before the recognition of dallessandroï as specie...
I did try to get any information about that from the EYF but nothing... I did get some information’s from other sources ‘Franz Glanz’ 4n should be a dallessandroï...
That’s mean it is a Jersey x lindleyanum....
I think it is that why the flower is not exactly look like the usual Andean Fire.

A friend of Franz (Franz never answer to my Email) told me than the only know besseae ‘Franz Glanz’ is a yellow besseae one....
Enjoy the confusion in this Genus....???
 

shakkai

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There is someone coming from EYOF to speak at our local Society meeting. If I get a chance, I can try to inquire more...

The besseae parent of my plant is a named clone, 'Firebird, which was awarded (83 pts.) in 1996. That means the measurements of that plant are on record, at least.

Looking them up:
NS: 9.2
NS vert: 6.8
Petal width: 2.3
Petal length: 4.1
DS width: 1.9
DS length: 3.8
SS width: 1.9
SS length: 1.9
Pouch width: 2.0
Pouch length: 3.2

PS. And, yes, my plant also came from Ratcliffe. :)
 

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