Phal bastianii/mariae

[mkline3]

Whatever it is I love it!

 

[Leo Schordje]

That this plant is a hybrid explains why I could not place the flower using the photos posted.

On the pendant spike of the true Phal mariae, at a show, I believe St Louis, a wonderful Phal mariae was displayed. It had 3 or 4 pendant flower stems, they hung STRAIGHT DOWN, totally lax, no stiffness at all. THey hung down between 3 and 4 feet. THe owners said most of the flower stems were several years old and had been continuously blooming. There is a flush of blooms in spring, but mariae is one of the species that once mature will be in bloom year round for years at a time. The plant had at least 20 flowers open for the show.

 

[SlipperFan]

OK. Now I have to find a real mariae!

Charles, keep us posted on the plant you got from Oak Hill. Kyle, you, also, please.

 

[cnycharles]

Hello again Dot,
About your plant, you were asking about what name to give it? If you know when you got if from Oak Hill and asked them which source they got it from, they might be able to trace what breeding was done to make the plant. That might help a lot to determine if it is a lovely marie or what. I think mine likely was a mariae that had bastianii pollen put on it by mistake when some deltoniis came along with the mariaes. I did have a plant labeled as deltonii from Rice's and can remember the flower pics (the plant died) and from what I remember of the flowers they were probably straight bastianii. The mariae plant that I have (the oldest one) from Oak Hill looks sort of different from the bastianii hybrid, so I'm hoping that it is a mariae. I wasn't thinking before that they (oak hill) probably get plants from different sources right along so just because one has flowered as a hybrid, doesn't necessarily mean that all will be, but maybe it would be a good idea to let them know that a plant you purchased from them on such and such a date was tentatively identified as a hybrid. They may be able to put you on a track of a plant that can be clearly identified as a mariae. If so, remember your friends!

 

[SlipperFan]

I might contact them. But some time ago, I did ask Hermann about a Phal species that I thought was misidentified, and his response was that names change and the name was what it used to be called. So I'm not sure this will go anywhere, but I guess it won't hurt to try. The problem is that I don't have a record of when I purchased the plant.

 

[biothanasis]

I love phal flowers with this colour pattern!!! WOW

 

[cnycharles]

half again of the flowers decided to start opening today, right before I boxed up my plants to go to the STOS show. I had registered the plant as phal bastianii, and decided not to change the registration to a hybrid because I don't know yet what it might be; though it might get a ribbon I'm sure there isn't any worry about aos awards, in which case it would have to be properly identified before an award would be final, and I would just refuse the award anyhow. I'm not very concerned about that happening, anyhow. It is nice to see all of those flowers after a long, cold (very few flowering plants) winter!

 

[Paul]

that's very nice!!!

 

[Leo Schordje]

Close scrutiny of the photos seems pretty certain (not absolute, but fairly certain) the hybrids pictured are (bastianii x mariae). It seems Eric Christiansen's opinion was this, so you have his authority behind it. If you are not making hybrids with your plant, or otherwise using it where the actual genetics are a big issue. I would say it is safe to exhibit the plant as:

Phalaenopsis Lovely Marie (bastianii x mariae) registered in 2007 by Lippold.

If you sell or give away pieces of the plant at that time I would say it is important to point out how you came to give it the name Lovely Marie, but I think for ribbon judging at shows Lovely Marie is "Good Enough" a name.

Leo

 

[Rick]

Does anyone have plants guaranteed collected from the jungle that are blooming? Or pictures of in situ plants in bloom? However, even a few pics of jungle plants rarely captures the natural variation of complete populations.

It seems like 90%+ of internet photos are of hybrids all claiming to be the real deal. That's got to be the highest rate of miss-identification next to villosum varieties.

 

[SlipperFan]

Does anyone have plants guaranteed collected from the jungle that are blooming? Or pictures of in situ plants in bloom? However, even a few pics of jungle plants rarely captures the natural variation of complete populations.

It seems like 90%+ of internet photos are of hybrids all claiming to be the real deal. That's got to be the highest rate of miss-identification next to villosum varieties.

Please see my previous post:
Eric Christiansen confirmed that the information and photos of bastianii and mariae on this website are true:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/bernard....ati%E8res.html

 

[Leo Schordje]

Does anyone have plants guaranteed collected from the jungle that are blooming? Or pictures of in situ plants in bloom? However, even a few pics of jungle plants rarely captures the natural variation of complete populations.

It seems like 90%+ of internet photos are of hybrids all claiming to be the real deal. That's got to be the highest rate of miss-identification next to villosum varieties.

Beacause of the $$$ motive that enters into orchid collecting, all information is suspect. Unless you collect it yourself can you really "know" for certain where a plant came from?

Every time a plant changes hands, each person selling, has a motive to tell the person buying what they want to hear, rather than the specific truth. Sometime you get accurate information, sometimes you don't. Since from the wilds to collectors in the states you typically have 5 to 10 or more different middle men, all you need is one middleman to pass on mis-information, then your provenance is false. Most people are fairly honest, but it just takes one mistatement in the chain and the history of a plant becomes a fiction.

Given that, habitat photos are very helpful even if they don't have all the details one would ideally need. There are old photos of early collected plants, check AQ for some of them. Use the AQ with the caveat that there are many mis-identified species awards published by the AOS, and even when they know they right name, they refuse to go back and change or correct names. In order to get it right one must read and re-read the original lit and the monographs that result, like Christiansen's "The Genus Phalaenopsis".

Regardless, we need a new generation of orchid growers to develop the desire to become expert on their favorite groups and really study the original descriptions & literature in order to clear up these messes. I'm passing the challenge on, charge !!! :viking:

There are people who are wrong on the internet, they must be corrected. :evil: Go out and correct them. :arrr:

 

[cnycharles]

Close scrutiny of the photos seems pretty certain (not absolute, but fairly certain) the hybrids pictured are (bastianii x mariae). It seems Eric Christiansen's opinion was this, so you have his authority behind it. If you are not making hybrids with your plant, or otherwise using it where the actual genetics are a big issue. I would say it is safe to exhibit the plant as:

Phalaenopsis Lovely Marie (bastianii x mariae) registered in 2007 by Lippold.

If you sell or give away pieces of the plant at that time I would say it is important to point out how you came to give it the name Lovely Marie, but I think for ribbon judging at shows Lovely Marie is "Good Enough" a name.

Leo

sounds good. since the plants are somewhat near in nature in the philippines, has there every been any checking to see if there are natural hybrids between the two?

 

[Leo Schordje]

I would check Eric Christiansen's book to find out about natural hybrids. Also Herman Sweet's book.

You said your plant came from seed. I would assume it is the man made hybrid rather than the natural hybrid, simply because you have no clear provenance other than it did come from seed in a nursery in the USA. To label it as a natural hybrid has the potential of muddying the waters in the future, when your plant goes to other people hands and they don't know the story.

 

[cnycharles]

I would check Eric Christiansen's book to find out about natural hybrids. Also Herman Sweet's book.

You said your plant came from seed. I would assume it is the man made hybrid rather than the natural hybrid, simply because you have no clear provenance other than it did come from seed in a nursery in the USA. To label it as a natural hybrid has the potential of muddying the waters in the future, when your plant goes to other people hands and they don't know the story.

close, I pointed out that he made seedlings at times, but whether or not the pods made viable seed or the flasks made it back to him and/or they were killed or not is the question. he also had many that were just imported. though he had very nice plants that were imported and grew most of his species pretty well, the culture for seedlings out of flask at times wasn't very special! just covering all of my thoughts as to if there were plants that were imported that could have possibly been natural hybrids. many more plants came in that were from other foreign nurseries or were imported after collecting than ever made it out of a pod, into a compot and grew to be sold. more than likely I'll just label it as phal lovely marie and suggest no breeding unless a flower could be sent to be identified where the taxonomist was confident enough to state it wasn't a natural hybrid, and most likely just a straight hybrid between mariae and bastianii
thanks for the help!

 

[cnycharles]

ooops

before I had posted the plant and flower pics in this thread, I had pre-registered it as phal bastianii in the stos show in binghamton, ny. after I got there I mentioned to a few people that I wasn't sure if it was still a species or a hybrid, but that I didn't think it would be winning any awards so didn't bother going through the process to change the name and division and all that and have a new label printed out. I was surprised to see today that it had received a blue ribbon for best phal species and best miniature phal species..... I was almost going to mention to one of the judges who vends beforehand that if a certain plant came up for anything to let it pass but didn't do so because I didn't want anyone to think I was trying to 'influence' anything. next time it will be registered as a hybrid... people really like it, though

 

[truemadman]

Hi All.

These phal are imported from the Philippines. The first is phal mariae and the second is phal bastianii. Hope this will help a bid. Sorry for the quality of the pictures. If a closeup needed, let me know.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Congrats Charles, remember, ribbons are more for good culture and good flower presentation, rather than specific conformation to some "ideal". Good growing.

 

[cnycharles]

thanks, and thanks for the pictures. mariae is now pretty clear to me after seeing plants with descending spikes and flowers hanging down. I had always thought before that the plants with more white area on them would be mariae, but the old notes before that mariae had three color forms (this probably originated before bastianii/deltonii was known about) always made room for confusion.

that all said, does anyone have a source for known mariaes, or have one for sale? i've checked a few places now and one source told me to hang on until their seedlings flowered so that they could tell for sure, and another in utah sold them all before I had found their site! I now have three plants from oak hill, two labeled mariae and one bastianii, and have also heard that they are getting them from the same source as before but now know that they aren't mariae but bastianii, so being sold as bastianii

 

[nikv]

^ ^
I don't have a source for mariae, but orchidtn has bastianii for sale on eBay (U.S.) as a Buy It Now for 6.99 each. I just purchased one this morning.

http://cgi.ebay.com/species-Phalaenopsis-Bastianii-NBS_W0QQitemZ140316787383QQihZ004QQcategoryZ42218QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262