Peruflora Pk flask fiasco

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Heather

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SlipperFan said:
Jerry, I must disagree with you about what is appropriate on these forums. Anything that adds to my knowledge of the orchid world and what is going on it it is interesting to me, and appropriate material for discussion here.

I do agree that we should be nice to each other. But I don't see that seeking the truth of any situation, if done dispassionately and honestly, should be seen as a threat to anyone.
Completely agree with Dot on this - open discussion on any orchid (particularly slipper orchid) is the whole point of this forum.

Lots of talk today at the NH society show about all that's going on in the world of Pk. The better we all understand what is going on, the better we can make decisions about how we grow the plants in the future.
 

Kyle

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gonewild said:
P. kovachii seems to have a distinct difference in the leaf shape from other Phrags.
It would be interesting to see photos of true kovachii seedlings, true kovachii hybrids and the mislabeled seedlings to compare.
Here are a group of seedlings in situ. The smallest being a bout 1.5 inch leaf span.





Kyle
 

Kyle

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Greenthings said:
Then within a few years of the discovery of this magnificent plant in November of 2001, the habitat is destroyed by greed driven men; neither a seedling, nor a mature Pk plant survived the destructive forces. I have been there when it was still untouched by men. I have seen the pictures my friends took when everything was destroyed.
Thanks the the seedbank, the potential for PK to recover in one of the previously collected sites remains.

Here is a picture of on of the first sites where PK was discovered.



Heres a plants with a 8 or more inch leaf span at the site. There were a dozen of so small seedling as well.



Kyle
 
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Greenthings

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Hi Kyle,

Nice pictures.

These were all taken at the site Kovach visited and purchased his, or was it the one Harold Koopowitz and his large group were at?
 

NYEric

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Greenthings said:
I am astounded that you, an orchid grower, a hobbyist, respond in such an insensitive manner to an issue every human being should be deeply concerned about.

A sure sign that the world’s most destructive animal was here.

Such a bloody shame, and you dare to say that illegal Pk collecting does not matter??
Greenthings, I am as concerned as anyone here about habitat and natural destruction. What does not matter is that plants that were sold as Pk were not Pk. If they were not Pk then why would they be illegal?!? Man is, in fact, the world's most destructive animal. But, if you believe in evolution, then man is doing exactly what is man's natural course. To change [and albeit possibly wreck] the environment. Remember the scorpion and the frog crossing the river story, Frog: "Why did you sting me when you knew we would drown?" Scorpion: "Because I'm a scorpion, that's what I do!" You shouldn't expect man to be totally in tune w/ or respect the environment any more than you should expect an elephant to fly. What's done is done, let's hope some efforts are made to repair the damage.
 

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Peter,

The two pictures were take at different sites.

The first pictures were taken about 4 hours from the trail head at a site that appeared the have not had any plants collected from.

The second pictures is from a site that was less then an hour from the trail head. One of the first sites discovered.

Did Kovach ever see the plants in situ? My understanding was he was only at the road side vendor.

Kyle
 
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Greenthings

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NYEric: "If they were not Pk then why would they be illegal?!?"

Yes Eric, non-Pk are illegal, if illegal Pk parents are involved, either as pollen parent, or pod parent.

Kyle, what is known as the original site is only in one location, namely where Kovach purchased his Pk plants. My question, "is that where you took the picture with the title "originalsite?" The one showing the sloped hill? Do you have a picture of FMB's kiosk by any chance??
 
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Greenthings

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Heather, anyone, I have tried Edit Signature a few times since yesterday, I want to have my name under Greenthings where it now says bloom, I can not get it to work. I have typed my name in the Edit Signature Box, Saved it.
Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Peter Croezen
 

Kyle

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Peter,

I don't think my picture is of the very first that the plants were found. Probably the second. My guide didn't speak english and my spanish is poor. It is far from the highway, about an hour hike at a good pace.

I never stopped at any roadside vendors in the area.

The last sentace in your message is a little garbled and doesn't make any sense to me.

Kyle
 
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Greenthings

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Kentuckiense, thanks

Kyle,
Correct, that picture is not from the original site.

The last sentence should have been deleted before I pressed the PQR button. It was part of an answer to your own question, namely that Kovach was taken to the original site by farmer FMB, according to one of the many different stories Kovach told.

Have you any idea at all where you were in relation to a nearby village, or big city? If not, ok, it is not important. I am just curious.

Anyone, please where is the tool that allows me to modify my own post,
after I have posted them?

I am new to this forum and do not know yet where to find all the handles and buttons
 

gonewild

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NYEric said:
Greenthings, I am as concerned as anyone here about habitat and natural destruction. What does not matter is that plants that were sold as Pk were not Pk. If they were not Pk then why would they be illegal?!? Man is, in fact, the world's most destructive animal. But, if you believe in evolution, then man is doing exactly what is man's natural course. To change [and albeit possibly wreck] the environment. Remember the scorpion and the frog crossing the river story, Frog: "Why did you sting me when you knew we would drown?" Scorpion: "Because I'm a scorpion, that's what I do!" You shouldn't expect man to be totally in tune w/ or respect the environment any more than you should expect an elephant to fly. What's done is done, let's hope some efforts are made to repair the damage.
Nor should you expect termites not to eat wood.
Destruction is in the eye of the beholder.
Most humans that believe you should not cut down a tree don't live in a forest.
 

gonewild

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Kyle said:
Here are a group of seedlings in situ. The smallest being a bout 1.5 inch leaf span.



Kyle
Thanks for posting the seedling photos Kyle.

Here is a picture of one of my kovachii seedlings that is about 1.5 inch leaf span that has been growing in bright light.



You can see that in both pictures the small seedlings have the very wide, short leaves that come to a broad point. That leaf characteristic is also evident in the larger plants in your photos.

The leaf shape is also shown well in the photos Ron took in Lima of Manrique's legal plants. Here is a quote from Ron-NY's post:

"It was in Miraflores that I got to see mature Phrag kovachii. I got to see five of them that are being used for breeding"
 

Ron-NY

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Lance the hybrid seedlings carry the same shape leaf and wide characteristic. There was a post somewhere where the problem seedlings were posted. I haven't been able to find that thread but the seedlings didn't have any charachteristics of kovachii. They were tall and narrow leaves and looked like boisserianum seedlings. I have only seen the hybrids that Piping Rock has and they all have kovachii leaf characteristics.

here is a PK X Cape Sunset but no longer a small seedling size

I am amazed how fast some of these are growing. The above picture is a month old and that plant now has a 12" leaf spread and the newest leaf has gained another inch or more in length.
 

gonewild

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Ron-NY said:
Lance the hybrid seedlings carry the same shape leaf and wide characteristic. There was a post somewhere where the problem seedlings were posted. I haven't been able to find that thread but the seedlings didn't have any charachteristics of kovachii. They were tall and narrow leaves and looked like boisserianum seedlings. I have only seen the hybrids that Piping Rock has and they all have kovachii leaf characteristics.
That is a good observation that hybrids inherit the kovachii leaf shape.

It would be nice if someone can also post pictures of seedlings from Peruflora stock, both specie and hybrid. Most of what I have seen posted have been in flask and the leaves look nothing like kovachii.

here is a PK X Cape Sunset but no longer a small seedling size
I am amazed how fast some of these are growing. The above picture is a month old and that plant now has a 12" leaf spread and the newest leaf has gained another inch or more in length.
Wow hybrid vigor really works! You can still see the kovachii influence in the leaf. How do you feel the growth of your kovachii hybrid compares to growth of other Phrag hybrids? I wish Piping Rock would sell flasks of kovachii hybrids.
 

Ron-NY

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gonewild said:
Wow hybrid vigor really works! You can still see the kovachii influence in the leaf. How do you feel the growth of your kovachii hybrid compares to growth of other Phrag hybrids? I wish Piping Rock would sell flasks of kovachii hybrids.
Depends on which hybrids we are talking about. I have all four of Piping Rock hybrids. I have found that for me the Cape Sunset and Saint Ouen have grown rapidly and steadily. The other two have grown faster than the species but for me have been very slow growers. I have found that the two rapid growing ones have outpaced most other hybrid seedlings I have grown. But of course I really haven't monitored the others as closely as I have monitored these.

Did you check directly with Glen Decker if they have any flasks available of the hybrids?
 

suss16

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I have one seedling each of the St. Ouen and the Cape Sunset (from PR). For me the Cape Sunset is growing much faster - and has wide leaves for the size of the plant. The St. Ouen has narrower leaves. Both of them are sending out new leaves long before the previous leaf has finished growing. They are still in the original spag. but plan to transfer to S/H this weekend.
 

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