Paphiopedilum insigne v. sanderae

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vandacee

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Paphiopedilum insigne v. sanderae x sib ('Yellow Bird' x 'White Knight')
Plant of Sam Tsui

 

GuRu

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It's a nice flower but dosn't look like P. insigne sanderae should look like. The brownish spots on the dorsal are o.k. but the brownish veines on the petals and the brownish colour, not only a hint, on the pouch - sorry but these shouldn't be there.
In my eyes this sibling cross is just a P. insigne, nothing more.
 

vandacee

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It's a nice flower but dosn't look like P. insigne sanderae should look like. The brownish spots on the dorsal are o.k. but the brownish veines on the petals and the brownish colour not only hint on pouch - sorry but thes shouldn't be there.
In my eyes this sibling cross is just a P. insigne, nothing more.
I agree with your understanding of this 'insigne' : it can only be said that it is a clear form !
 

Guldal

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Olaf Gruss (and others) would probably just characterize it as 'a pale form of insigne'...but I agree with GuRu, it's a nice, well balanced flower...what is it's measures?

And now we are at it: apart from the fact, that Sam seems to have his own (private?) understanding of 'x sib, can anybody explain to me (in layman's terms) the genetic probability of getting an album (or in this case s/a) outcome, when crossing one fma. album with another?

Kind regards,
Jens
 

Spaph

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Very cool color form!
Great to see some different color forms coming back in the mix with this species, old literature mentions hundreds of different color forms back in the golden age of this species discovery and cultivation.
 

monocotman

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Probability of albas

Guldal

The probability of albas all depends on where the mutations are that cause this change. If both parents have the mutation in exactly the same place in the chromosome then you will probably get 100% albas in the following generation.
If the albas are caused by two separate mutations in different places then you can get all sorts of things depending on how they interact at a genetic level.
Each alba mutation could be compensated and counteracted by the wild type in the progeny and therefore you get non alba progeny.

David
 

Guldal

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Hi David

Thank you for the explanation, that even a human science person (or would a person from humanities be the more correct term?) could understand! :clap:

Kind regards,
Jens
 

Happypaphy7

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Based on the wonderful description of this item on the website, I would be so disappointed.
Isn't sanderae supposed be pure green with only slight amount of fine spots on the dorsal?
This seems to have been "polluted" at some point in the past breeding, probably the gradn parent was the standard form.

Still nice, but not what I would expect based on the tag.
 

Happypaphy7

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Very cool color form!
Great to see some different color forms coming back in the mix with this species, old literature mentions hundreds of different color forms back in the golden age of this species discovery and cultivation.
and the villosum. So many diversity within each species is long gone, unfortunately!
 

Happypaphy7

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By the way, sanderae is not a ablum form of the species, sanderanium is.
Sanderea form has fine spots on the dorsal.
Sanderanium has no dark pigments at all, purely green and white on the dorsal edge.
 

GuRu

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Guldal

The probability of albas all depends on where the mutations are that cause this change. If both parents have the mutation in exactly the same place in the chromosome then you will probably get 100% albas in the following generation.
If the albas are caused by two separate mutations in different places then you can get all sorts of things depending on how they interact at a genetic level.
Each alba mutation could be compensated and counteracted by the wild type in the progeny and therefore you get non alba progeny.

David
That means in reverse conclusion, at least in my eyes, nurseries o sellers in general shouldn't sell progenies of such crosses not before they'd flowered for the first time, to avoid mislabeling and disappointment with the costumers.
 

vandacee

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That means in reverse conclusion, at least in my eyes, nurseries o sellers in general shouldn't sell progenies of such crosses not before they'd flowered for the first time, to avoid mislabeling and disappointment with the costumers.
Yes, but it's part of the game. Sometimes we have good surprises, sometimes we don't!
 
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