Paph. Wölssner Helene

[Mrs. Paph]

I love both species...but that is far enough from expected to be quite a disappointment, and make me suspicious as well. I don't say it's ugly by any means, just not what I would have imagined, so we'll just have to wait to see more in bloom!

 

[Leo Schordje]

I have to side with you Hien. Looks too off to be what it is claimed to be. Even if it is the correct parents, I would have to bloom more before I used this clone in further breeding. The color is fine for me but the shape needs a lot of work.

Actually I'm surprised you guys don't remember the colors of other intra-sectional charlesworthii hybrids. oke: Generally the charlesworthii dorsal shape, size & color is largely recessive. Good example is (henryanum x charlesworthii) - not much pink in the dorsal, just the white background and a little flushing of pink. The flower superficially resembles an altered color form of henryanum. Paph (barbigerum x chalresworthii) is also more like an improved barbigerum than anything else. Also look at charlesworthii x complex paphs, generally the pink of the dorsal is reduced to either lines, spots or just a small flush of color, rather than a full blown pink dorsal. Even (spicerianum x charlesworthii) looks superficially more like spicerianum than the charlesworthii. With its closest cousins charleworthii is a shy one.

The magic comes in the next generation. That's when you can pick up the color again. I REALLY want to see Wossner Helene crossed to (henryanum x charlesworthii) I think that would be an exciting cross. With charlesworthii on both sides as a grandparent, This could give you white or pink dorsals on a percentage of offspring, helenae for smaller plant stature & yellows and greens, and henryanum for bold spots and pink colors in the petals & pouch - all manner of flower would be possible, some on fairly compact plants. I bet of few would be more like mini-complex reds. A selfing of Wossner Helene would be interesting too, again to recover the charleworthii dorsal in some percentage of the offspring.

Note: when breeding outside it's section charleworthi isn't always recessive. It just seems to be recessive to its close relatives. Outside its section it behaves differently.

Cheers - Leo

 

[NYEric]

I just wish I could get some of these crosses. It's so stupifyingly annoying that these crosses are legally made but so hard to get here.

 

[nikv]

What a charming flower!

 

[Drorchid]

Actually I'm surprised you guys don't remember the colors of other intra-sectional charlesworthii hybrids. oke: Generally the charlesworthii dorsal shape, size & color is largely recessive. Good example is (henryanum x charlesworthii) - not much pink in the dorsal, just the white background and a little flushing of pink. The flower superficially resembles an altered color form of henryanum. Paph (barbigerum x chalresworthii) is also more like an improved barbigerum than anything else. Also look at charlesworthii x complex paphs, generally the pink of the dorsal is reduced to either lines, spots or just a small flush of color, rather than a full blown pink dorsal. Even (spicerianum x charlesworthii) looks superficially more like spicerianum than the charlesworthii. With its closest cousins charleworthii is a shy one.

The magic comes in the next generation. That's when you can pick up the color again. I REALLY want to see Wossner Helene crossed to (henryanum x charlesworthii) I think that would be an exciting cross. With charlesworthii on both sides as a grandparent, This could give you white or pink dorsals on a percentage of offspring, helenae for smaller plant stature & yellows and greens, and henryanum for bold spots and pink colors in the petals & pouch - all manner of flower would be possible, some on fairly compact plants. I bet of few would be more like mini-complex reds. A selfing of Wossner Helene would be interesting too, again to recover the charleworthii dorsal in some percentage of the offspring.

Note: when breeding outside it's section charleworthi isn't always recessive. It just seems to be recessive to its close relatives. Outside its section it behaves differently.

Cheers - Leo

All very true! With this kind of breeding you do not always get the results you want in the first generation, and you have to do a two or three step breeding method. I agree I don't like how this primary looks, it brings out the worst characteristics of both parents, and brings out muddy tones, but I do think it would be useful for using as a parent for tea cup paphs. Eventually in the next few generations you can select for plants with flatter dorsals and plants that have nicer colors.

Robert

 

[emydura]

Actually I'm surprised you guys don't remember the colors of other intra-sectional charlesworthii hybrids. oke: Generally the charlesworthii dorsal shape, size & color is largely recessive. Good example is (henryanum x charlesworthii) - not much pink in the dorsal, just the white background and a little flushing of pink. The flower superficially resembles an altered color form of henryanum. Paph (barbigerum x chalresworthii) is also more like an improved barbigerum than anything else. Also look at charlesworthii x complex paphs, generally the pink of the dorsal is reduced to either lines, spots or just a small flush of color, rather than a full blown pink dorsal. Even (spicerianum x charlesworthii) looks superficially more like spicerianum than the charlesworthii. With its closest cousins charleworthii is a shy one.

The magic comes in the next generation. That's when you can pick up the color again. I REALLY want to see Wossner Helene crossed to (henryanum x charlesworthii) I think that would be an exciting cross. With charlesworthii on both sides as a grandparent, This could give you white or pink dorsals on a percentage of offspring, helenae for smaller plant stature & yellows and greens, and henryanum for bold spots and pink colors in the petals & pouch - all manner of flower would be possible, some on fairly compact plants. I bet of few would be more like mini-complex reds. A selfing of Wossner Helene would be interesting too, again to recover the charleworthii dorsal in some percentage of the offspring.

Note: when breeding outside it's section charleworthi isn't always recessive. It just seems to be recessive to its close relatives. Outside its section it behaves differently.

Cheers - Leo

Thanks Leo. Informitive as always. Up till now I have just been collecting Paphs. It is only recently I have been thinking about breeding. I've decided on concentrating on the species you mentioned as they are colourful and compact (important given my limited space) and easy to grow. I have a couple of flasks each of helenae and henryanum I am growing up as well as a beautiful compact form of charlesworthii with a perfectly shaped flower. So hopefully soon I can start attempting crosses you suggested. I was a bit alarmed by the result of this cross but you have given me the inspiration to take it further.

I have a helenae x henryanum in bud at the moment. I don't think I have seen any photos of that cross. Interesting to see how it turns out.

David

 

[Leo Schordje]

Thanks Leo. Informitive as always. Up till now I have just been collecting Paphs. It is only recently I have been thinking about breeding. I've decided on concentrating on the species you mentioned as they are colourful and compact (important given my limited space) and easy to grow. I have a couple of flasks each of helenae and henryanum I am growing up as well as a beautiful compact form of charlesworthii with a perfectly shaped flower. So hopefully soon I can start attempting crosses you suggested. I was a bit alarmed by the result of this cross but you have given me the inspiration to take it further.

I have a helenae x henryanum in bud at the moment. I don't think I have seen any photos of that cross. Interesting to see how it turns out.

David

I would love to see photos of (helenae x henryanum), please post them when they bloom.

 

[Kavanaru]

there is a picture of Paphiopedilum Ministar (helenae x henryanum) posted by Olaf in another forum: http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63436 from all helenae primary hybrids that I have seen, this is the one which will most probably please the large mayority of people... I Like it at all, however, my favorites continue being Wössner Zwerg and Wössner Goldsuk...

(hope it is ok to post the link here)

 

[emydura]

there is a picture of Paphiopedilum Ministar (helenae x henryanum) posted by Olaf in another forum: http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63436 from all helenae primary hybrids that I have seen, this is the one which will most probably please the large mayority of people... I Like it at all, however, my favorites continue being Wössner Zwerg and Wössner Goldsuk...

(hope it is ok to post the link here)

Thanks. I remember seeing that one now. Quite nice. I hope mine turns out as well. It certainly is very easy to grow.

David

 

[Leo Schordje]

there is a picture of Paphiopedilum Ministar (helenae x henryanum) posted by Olaf in another forum: http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=63436 from all helenae primary hybrids that I have seen, this is the one which will most probably please the large mayority of people... I Like it at all, however, my favorites continue being Wössner Zwerg and Wössner Goldsuk...

(hope it is ok to post the link here)

I was banned from that forum, as are many others here. I am not allowed to use my name or any part of my name on Peter's forum. Which I feel is ridiculous. I have decided to not waste my time where I am not welcome.

 

[SlipperKing]

I'm not banned yet Leo so here is Olaf's posting of hen X hel

 

[Kavanaru]

I was banned from that forum, as are many others here. I am not allowed to use my name or any part of my name on Peter's forum. Which I feel is ridiculous. I have decided to not waste my time where I am not welcome.

WOW... but why?

I recently registered in that forum because I wanted to see those pictures... cannot yet say anything good or bad about it...

 

[nikv]

Wow! Very cute. I love the dorsal on this one. Green with a white border and lots of spots! :drool:

 

[Leo Schordje]

I really like paph henryanum straight up, or in just about every primary cross it has been put into. Looks like (helenae x henryanum) has got everything I like about henryanum plus the smaller size.

- Kavanaru - Don't bring the issue up over on that site, SOF, you'll get banned yourself. Peter has a strict no selling through contacts made on his site (unless his site gets an annual payment). In his mind - because I have a website that includes my name - if I post an image, and there is any clue as to my ownership of the plant, even just my first name, that constitutes selling through his site, and he wanted $150 a year at the time. He also bans people quickly if there is any criticism or even sarcastic remarks in general. I found it all too frustrating to deal with. He may not be a bad guy in person, I just find it hard to deal with the way he runs his site. This subject has been beaten to death on this site a number of times. It is basically old news & a long story. Others have similar stories. Best to just let the subject die.

 

[ORG]

Here is my own picture, not taken from the other side

and a second clone

Best greetings

Olaf

 

[Leo Schordje]

Olaf,
Very beautiful. Wunderbar! This is definitely a good cross for tea cup size paphs. Thank you
Leo

 

[Kavanaru]

- Kavanaru - Don't bring the issue up over on that site, SOF, you'll get banned yourself. Peter has a strict no selling through contacts made on his site (unless his site gets an annual payment). In his mind - because I have a website that includes my name - if I post an image, and there is any clue as to my ownership of the plant, even just my first name, that constitutes selling through his site, and he wanted $150 a year at the time. He also bans people quickly if there is any criticism or even sarcastic remarks in general. I found it all too frustrating to deal with. He may not be a bad guy in person, I just find it hard to deal with the way he runs his site. This subject has been beaten to death on this site a number of times. It is basically old news & a long story. Others have similar stories. Best to just let the subject die.

no problem... I read that here today, and I forgot that here yesterday...

 

[Kavanaru]

Here is my own picture, not taken from the other side


Best greetings

Olaf

Olaf, Thanks a lot!!!


very nice!

 

[SlipperFan]

Awfully cute!

 

[SlipperKing]

Thanks for the updated PICs Olaf.