Paph. venustum albescens (almost measuresianum)

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GuRu

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Although the few spots in the dentre of the flower are faint and pale ...they are there. So I must be consequent and can't name it fma. measuresianum after the discussion in the thread of Jens (Guldal). Anyway, I like the flower a lot and so far, the flower has been open for a week or so, the petals didn't reflex.
09030_22.12.07_paph_venustum_albescens.jpg


09033_22.12.07_paph_venustum_albescens.jpg


09036_22.12.07_paph_venustum_albescens.jpg
 

Guldal

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Good form on this one.
Hear, hear... it's definately one up (at least) from mine! 😉

Concerning the question of the name, Rudolf I think Leslie's 'fma alboviride' beats your 'fma. albescens' by a whisker - both, though,
would need the qualifying (Hort.) to make clear, that this is a horticultural epithet and not a botanically valid colourform. Strictly speaking, there are at the moment only two valid botanical colourforms, namely the typical one and fma. measuresianum (the albino form without any trace of anthocyanin).
But I think, Leslie, has a point about the need of a designation for the plants with flowers with only slight specks of anthocyanin - for breeding purposes, I think, was his argument. But here we have to satisfy ourselves with the hortucultural epithet , making it: P. venustum fma. alboviride (Hort.) - and nothing wrong with that!

Best regards, Jens
 

merc

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beautiful bloom! TIL the difference between venustum albescens (some spots) vs measuresianum (no spots)! i love coming to ST and learning something new everyday.
 

Ozpaph

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does someone have the original description of 'measurianum'? The very brief description in ? Gardners Chronicle doesnt say 'no spots'.
 

Guldal

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Seems like a new forma color variety alboviride may need to be described!! Olaf??
No, it doesn't warrant a botanical description...botanically it's somewhat neither fowl nor fish (i.e. just a very pale flower of the typical form). Hence my proposal of giving it a horticultural name/epithet, if you wish!
 
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Guldal

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does someone have the original description of 'measurianum'? The very brief description in ? Gardners Chronicle doesnt say 'no spots'.
Allow me to quote part of an earlier post of mine:
Braem quotes an anonymous, contemporaneous source on the November 28th, 1893, meeting of the Royal Horticultural Society, where Measures exhibited the colour form for the first time: "an extraordinary and beautiful form with white and green flowers, without any of the brown and red seen in the type" (p. 266, 2016).
 

Guldal

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For a thorough discussion of fma. measuresianum I refer you to the post in its entirety:
I have now finally had some time to do a bit of homework ..... Braem clearly and unequivocally asserts in the 2nd Edition of his comprehensive "The Genus Paphiopedilum", that " Plants offed as albinos of P. venustum sometimes show, although faintly, the remnants of reddish or brownish pigmentation. However, only those clones lacking any red or brown should be accepted as albinos" (p. 266, 2016). I can't distinguish any red or brown, however faint, in the photo in his book of this colour form (p. 389, ibid.).
Cribb in the 2nd edition of his monograph on "The Genus Paphiopedilum" is fully in accord with Braem's point of view: "... [A]lbino plants, referable to var. measuresianum, lacking any maroon or purple colour in the leaves and flowers are occasionally seen in collections ..... It is perhaps best treated as a form" (p. 392, 1998). Sadly, Cribb provides no photo of this colour form, but refers magnanimously to Braem (1988) for providing "[e]xcellent photo-graphs [sic] of this" (ibid.).
Gruß in his lavishly illustrated book on "The Genus Paphiopedilum. Albino Forms" shows photos of as well flowers without as with anthocyanin specks - but what the latters pertain, he clearly sees them as an abberation of the albino colour form, fma. measuresianum, as he explicitely makes the following qualifying statement in the photo caption: "shown as forma. alba [sic] but with black spots" (p. 181, 2008). A view that is fully in accordance with Gruß' overall concept of albinism in Paphiopedilums, which he presents in the introduction to the book (p. 8, ibid.).


Stephen might be right in assuming, that the original description was imprecise or lacking, but ..... Braem quotes an anonymous, contemporaneous source on the November 28th, 1893, meeting of the Royal Horticultural Society, where Measures exhibited the colour form for the first time: "an extraordinary and beautiful form with white and green flowers, without any of the brown and red seen in the type" (p. 266, 2016).
.....
 

DrLeslieEe

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No, it doesn't warrant a botanical description...botanically it's somewhat neither fowl nor fish (i.e. just a very pale flower of the typical form). Hence my proposal of giving it a horticultural name/epithet, if you wish!
I disagree.

The alboviride (with spots) should be described because this form is seen more often than ‘true’ measuresianum aka true album sans spots.

That way, there won’t be this repeated long arduous discussion of color technicalities based on an 1893 original (one line!) description that is at best open to interpretation lol.

Unless of course, a renown taxonomist of our times can go in and correct that (in my opinion) what is probably an honest misrepresentation of the entire ilk of measuresianums (by reviewing the original herbarium sample and analyzing the wild populations) by the original ‘anonymous’ writer in the Gardeners’ Chronicle, 3rd series, 14:756 (1893).

As I mentioned before, when true measuresianums are selfed, the spots do appear in most of the progeny. And these progeny when sib, can produce true measuresianums. So then what?!
 

DirGo

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Concerning the question of the name, Rudolf I think Leslie's 'fma alboviride' beats your 'fma. albescens' by a whisker - both, though, would need the qualifying (Hort.) to make clear, that this is a horticultural epithet and not a botanically valid colourform.
Hi Jens, there is too much choice when selecting a name for a horticultural epithet based on flower color: albescens (becoming white), flavescens (becoming yellow), virescens ( becoming green), alboviride (white/green), alboflavum (white/yellow), album (white), pallescens (becoming pale) .... the list is endless.
But in this case with a paler yellow/white flower, I would give "another whisker more" to "alboflavum (Hort.)" beating your alboviride proposal. Would love to hear your view?
 

Guldal

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Hi Jens, there is too much choice when selecting a name for a horticultural epithet based on flower color: albescens (becoming white), flavescens (becoming yellow), virescens ( becoming green), alboviride (white/green), alboflavum (white/yellow), album (white), pallescens (becoming pale) .... the list is endless.
But in this case with a paler yellow/white flower, I would give "another whisker more" to "alboflavum (Hort.)" beating your alboviride proposal. Would love to hear your view?
Dirk, after reading your post I also would vote for 'alboflavum' (Hort).
There is to my taste too much green in Rudolf's flower for me to just go along with the alboflavum...but I agree with you, both, that we are here certainly in the realm of 'debateable'!
However, I'm overall delighted to notice, that we all strive for finding the best horticultural (Hort.) designation for these not quite albino plants! 😏
 

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