Paph spicerianum

[Rick Barry]

Paph spicerianum 'St. Elsewhere' x 'Boss'

From a really outstanding cross that produced plants that are uniformly excellent in size, form, and color. Last year a group of these were brought to a judging session for consideration for an Award of Quality, but one of the judges insisted that they were actually hybrids, based upon some detail in the staminodes. Since the cross was made by the Orchid Zone, I'm very skeptical of such a claim, and so is nearly everyone else who has seen these plants. You can decide for yourself.

Regards,
Rick

 

[biothanasis]

This is so great, like every spicerianum!!! When will I obtain mine???

 

[P-chan]

It sure looks like spicerianum to me. And a beauty, at that!

 

[Candace]

Yes, I've heard all about that. Word sure gets around;> Isn't this the group of plants that have the flatter than normal dorsals, too?

 

[SlipperFan]

Looks like spice to me. I wonder what about the staminode isn't spice? I don't see it.

 

[Corbin]

Looks like spice to me. I wonder what about the staminode isn't spice? I don't see it.

With this thought in mind I thought that doesn’t look like mine.

Then I went to http://www.slipperorchids.info/paphspecies/index.html There seems to be quite a variety. It would be nice to know the specifics as to what they thought was wrong.

 

[Rick Barry]

There is a P. spicerianum in the possession of a prominent Japanese collector that apparently has an unusually flat dorsal (relative, no doubt, to the usual funnel-shape) and I believe that plant is in the ancestry of the cross in question. If there is any basis for questioning whether the Zone's spicerianums are true species plants, it has to be based upon the inclusion of that specific plant in the family tree. To argue that this group is actually hybrid you must first prove that this specific ancestor is a hybrid. That would be difficult, since it is unlikely the owner would be willing to offer his plant for inspection, given its probable value. Certainly, the plant is roundly accepted to be Paph. spicerianum.

The judge himself has declared the staminode as the decisive factor in making his declaration. I won't try to explain his rationale, but that is where he anchored his claim.

The Zone plants don't have what you would call particularly flat dorsals. They may be large, but so are the rest of the floral segments.

Actually, I've talked with nearly everyone concerned, and definitely have heard both sides of the story. The judge who declared the cross to be a hybrid told me months ago that he was writing a paper to clarify and support his position. He deserves credit for that, because he risks being scrutinized at the procedural level. Awards can be granted provisionally, subject to confirmation from an orchid identification center like Selby. Assuming any of the plants were awardable, that might have been the best approach.

 

[Corbin]

Are there genetic test that can be done?

 

[JeanLux]

Looks like a spicerianum to me, but with a much better shape and color than mine !!! Jean

 

[rdlsreno]

As I know it, the clone 'Boss' came from a selfing or sib of the clone 'Bostock's' of Ratcliffe which the dorsal remains flat for several days before curving back some of its siblings went to Japan. (see Tropical Slipper Orchids by Koopowitz page 145). If you notice, the color and shape is very similar to the one's coming from OZ. The clone 'St. Elsewhere' came from the clone 'St. Albans' which is a very good old jungle collected clone. I am posting a picture of a clone that won (I think) best paph species in the recent WOC the clone 'Super' a clone from a selfing of 'St. Albans' (see the similarity of the staminode to the bottom picture of 'St. Albans'). Also, I will post a staminode of a plant that came from OZ and that of the clone 'Super' They are so varied. Some say it should be green but if you look at Cribb description, it can be colored yolk-yellow (Cribb page 273). They say that it might be infused with the hybrid that was awarded many years ago 'Marshall' (notice no green or yellow 'X' mark at the center of the staminode). Which I think should make the flower huge since it has a NS of 10.5 cm. but the flowers that are coming form OZ are of the typical size of 6.5 to 7.5 cm. Other say that the serration at the tip of the petal is an indication that it is a hybrid (Paph. Bruno 'Model') but it can also come from ploidy of the plant. The award photo of 'Marshall' and 'St. Albans' are courtesy of AOS slide file.

This are just my observations.

Ramon

clone 'Super'

staminode

clone 'chunky' from OZ

staminode

'Marshall'

'St. Albans'

 

[aquacorps]

Rick, when you get a copy of the judge's paper i would be interested in getting a copy. Is the paper going to be peered reviewed? Is the judge a taxonomist? Rusty

 

[Candace]

I'd like to open this discussion a little further. We've had example after example of plants mislabeled incorrectly and then awarded. The judges catch flack for not catching the incorrect parentage and giving the award. But, on the other hand, if a judge stands up and claims the parentage is in question, it seems he's "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't". So, what exactly should a judge do when he questions the parentage of a certain plant? As in the case of these spicerianums? I would think a provisional award would be given and based on taxonomist approval, awarded or not awarded. From what I understand, a taxonomist saw the plant photos and agrees with the judge, that it's a hybrid. Of course, rumor and gossip turns much truth into playing 'Telephone'.

 

[Rick]

I think this also goes back to all our debates on definition of species and natural variation of a species. This flower looks 95% like every other spicerianum to me, so to be invalidated as the "true" species based on a subtle detail of the staminode seems pretty harsh. What about the possibility of a sport (mutation)? In this case it wouldn't take much of one (compared to going albino or melanistic) to change the color of the staminode center spot. If it was a hybrid then with what? And then it would need to be back crossed to spicerianum several more times to result in this flower. I can't imagine why anyone would expend that much time and effort just to make a super spicer.

I think this also makes a catch 22 for giving quality awards to species since there must be variation to imply judgmental differences in quality, but the variation is simultaneously considered as evidence of hybridization (and subsequently disqualified).

 

[aquacorps]

If the judge has "evidence" and the backing of a taxonomist I believe he has the duty to present his paper/findings to other judges. By not presenting their findings (and the basis for them) the judge and taxonomist are undermining the judging system. I find it difficult to believe that a person would spend over seven years becoming a judge and not try to uphold the judging sytem, especially when he has the backing of a taxonomist. rusty

 

[Candace]

I'm confused. When a judge disqualifies a plant from judging, why would he have to write a paper? If person X submits a plant for judging and Judge Y says it's not a specie, but a hybrid and disqualifies it. What does person X do if he believes Judge Y is wrong? Does X take it to another judging center? File a written complaint with the AOS? How is it ultimately resolved? Does a written statement from a taxonomist have to be submitted and who would pay for this?

 

[Rick]

I'm confused. When a judge disqualifies a plant from judging, why would he have to write a paper? If person X submits a plant for judging and Judge Y says it's not a specie, but a hybrid and disqualifies it. What does person X do if he believes Judge Y is wrong? Does X take it to another judging center? File a written complaint with the AOS? How is it ultimately resolved? Does a written statement from a taxonomist have to be submitted and who would pay for this?

For provisional awards the flower is sent to an AOS sanctioned taxonomist for verification at no cost (other than shipping) to the flower owner. And I believe their is a structure for petitioning the AOS over such grievances including the presentation of new taxonomic imformation. However taxonomists are only as good as the keys they have available, and for species coming from remote and inaccessible places on this earth these keys are generally based on very limited material.

 

[aquacorps]

Candice, sorry to confuse you. Who is the judge and the taxonomist? Simple straight forward question. Rusty

 

[Candace]

I'd prefer not to name names, especially since my info. is from gossip/heresay. It sounds like the best way for judges to handle these situations are to grant the provisional award and let the taxonomists decide. And maybe this is the written or unwritten rule? Of course, what happens when taxonomists disagree? Sticky situation.

 

[Corbin]

When are the judge's and the taxonomist's reports expected to be out? I hope their reports can be posted here so that we all can read them and we can discuss their findings. I am no taxonomist but I am eager to learn.

 

[rdlsreno]

I'd prefer not to name names, especially since my info. is from gossip/heresay. It sounds like the best way for judges to handle these situations are to grant the provisional award and let the taxonomists decide. And maybe this is the written or unwritten rule? Of course, what happens when taxonomists disagree? Sticky situation.

I agree!!!


Ramon