Paph.rothschildianum 'Mont Millais' flask

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kiwi

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I am thinking about buying a flask of Paph.rothschildianum 'Mont Millais' FCC/RHS,AOS x self from Tokyo Orchid Nursery but was wondering if there is any point as this won’t produce anything that hasn’t already been bloomed. Do the roth experts out there think that this is a waste of time or would you buy it. It is expensive so don’t want to waste money
 

emydura

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I'm sure it would produce some nice flowers but if Paphioland was still on this forum, he would say it is not a step forward. Compared to the better clones, the flowers on MM are pretty small. I think flasks from TON involving clones such as Tarantula or Tokyo Fantasy would be better bets.
 

troy

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no hatred!!
The consensus is wider bigger leaves = bigger flowers, the roth specialists give their plants some growth hormone to boost their size, phytohormones or colchicine or both
 

emydura

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Interesting that on the TON website they have divisions of MM and 'Tokyo Fantasy' for sale. The MM division is way more expensive. In Australian dollars that would $14,250 for the MM and $9,860 for the Tokyo Fantasy. I am not sure if they are the same size divisions. MM is a proven breeder. I am not sure about 'Tokyo Fantasy'.


 

Ozpaph

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Im told the MM x self seedlings often grow slowly.
I didnt buy any.
The newer hybrids should be better. Personally cant wait for the "King Kong' crosses to flower (in 6-8 years)
 

kiwi

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I agree the King King crosses are exciting. I will also pass on the MM flask.
 

emydura

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Im told the MM x self seedlings often grow slowly.
I didnt buy any.
The newer hybrids should be better. Personally cant wait for the "King Kong' crosses to flower (in 6-8 years)
You must be growing yours well. I think mine will take a bit longer.

I agree about the King Kong breeding. Now that should be a step forward.
 

Fabrice

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Difficult to compare plants from several generations of selection to a wild collected plant.

MM and its story will be always in my eyes an extraordinary clone because "made by nature". (Like some other very good too but less famous)

If you choose MM selfing, you will obtain probably some similar one and possibly better one.

Except the last generation from OZ what is really impressive but not in my taste for many plants, I asked me recently where is the last generation produce with Tarantula, Perfection, Leo, etc... from Val x MM or MM x Val? I think MM is a wonderful plant but Val was not.

Same question about Raptor? The cross with New Horizon is very difficult to grow, not vigourous.
Perfecto x Raptor is easy to grow.
So, even if you cross 2 recent roth. , not sure to obtain vigorous seedlings

I'm a fanatic of roth. No question for me to grow only in my collection the "caricatural" plants from OZ what are "BIG MUSCLES" flower. The charm is not only in the size for sure.

For your choice, depend to you taste and your space in your growing area. If you like last generation only, don't buy MM x self. If you like what is really rothschildianum from the beggining of the story until now, this flask is for you. If you have space and money, choose the 2! :)
 

Guldal

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I recently at our local mastergrower, Hans Christiansen, in Fredensborg, saw a division of MM in bloom. The flowers might not have been the mega-biggest, I've seen, though they could in no way be called small. But the proportions of the flowers, its colours and their interplay, made it in my eyes as close to perfection as can be.

In this sense, one can only second Fabrice. So many parameters can be the foundation for a decision like kiwi's - apart from the latest fads in breeding and judging, and the breedability of the plants; one also has to reckon with one's personal, aesthetic preferences....and here the old adage comes true: it's all in the eyes of the beholder. As Fabrice's example with some of the OZ-clones amply illustrates: what to one person might be seen as a huge step forward, might for another be a caricature!

Interesting that on the TON website they have divisions of MM and 'Tokyo Fantasy' for sale. The MM division is way more expensive.
Maybe, here is yet another paramter at stake - as Sam of Orhcid Inn probably would put it: here you buy a piece of history! ;)

Kind regards,
Jens
 
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Fabrice

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2 things it's necessary to not forget:

1- the quality of growing conditions (and the culture secrets!) are very important for the quality, size and even color bloom. Tarantula bloomed in the past with 39cms dark flower by the TON. I'm almost sure 95% of roth. lover in the world (me too!) couldn't bloom it with this quality, particulary with this size.
Several personns told me MM bloomed in he past with 32cms flower while many personns bloom it 27/28cms.

2-About Tokyo Fantasy against Mont Millais, The 1st one is a very good plant from the 1st generation of roth. (MM x Val) . Even if it's a very nice plant, it's not sure it's a good parent. On the contrary, MM proved it was consistently a good parent with exceptionnal genetic potential.
So, even if the size of the division could influence the price, I'm not surprised MM is much expensive.
 

emydura

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I recently at our local mastergrower, Hans Christiansen, in Fredensborg, saw a division of MM in bloom. The flowers might not have been the mega-biggest, I've seen, though they could in no way be called small. But the proportions of the flowers, its colours and their interplay, made it in my eyes as close to perfection as can be.

In this sense, one can only second Fabrice. So many parameters can be the foundation for a decision like kiwi's - apart from the latest fads in breeding and judging, and the breedability of the plants; one also has to reckon with one's personal, aesthetic preferences....and here the old adage comes true: it's all in the eyes of the beholder. As Fabrice's example with some of the OZ-clones amply illustrates: what to one person might be seen as a huge step forward, might for another be a caricature!

Maybe, here is yet another paramter at stake - as Sam of Orhcid Inn probably would put it: here you buy a piece of history! ;)

Kind regards,
Jens
Yes, certainly buying a piece of history. It is quite simply the most important roth clone of all in terms of modern breeding.

I guess size is relative. MM is larger than any roth I have flowered but small compared to clones such as these. Size isn't everything as you say.

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There haven't been a lot of great photos of MM on the internet. So it has never been put in a good light. Justin has recently posted some nice ones. I think this is the best one I have seen from TON. The colour and presentation are magnificent.




I still don't think there is much point in buying a selfing of MM. It has already been selfed previously, so it is not new. Given it is such a great breeder, I would rather have it crossed with some of the bigger clones in the list above. It tends to bring out the best in such crosses.
 

emydura

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1- the quality of growing conditions (and the culture secrets!) are very important for the quality, size and even color bloom. Tarantula bloomed in the past with 39cms dark flower by the TON. I'm almost sure 95% of roth. lover in the world (me too!) couldn't bloom it with this quality, particulary with this size.
.
True. I don't think even TON have flowered it at that size since.
 

Fabrice

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Right David. The best compromise is probably MM x "last generation good clone". I would prefer that to "last generation" x "last generation".

But as it's almost impossible to buy a MM division, it's interesting (in my opinion!) to have a good selfing of it in a collection. Just to remember what was a very good wild roth before the selection permanently erases the original memory. :)
 

Paph Paradise

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Right David. The best compromise is probably MM x "last generation good clone". I would prefer that to "last generation" x "last generation".

But as it's almost impossible to buy a MM division, it's interesting (in my opinion!) to have a good selfing of it in a collection. Just to remember what was a very good wild roth before the selection permanently erases the original memory. :)
I agree that the way to go is MM x something new. Since we sell TON plants here I had the opportunity to buy the MM x self flasks but I passed. I felt there would be more demand for the MM outcrosses, and I'm really not a huge fan of selfings. Especially in something as slow as a roth. Outcrossing will give more vigor and we rely on sib crosses for enhancing traits we desire.

There seems to be a tremendous amount of mystique surrounding 'Tarantula'. TON certainly gets top dollar for divisions. The Tarantula crosses were the first to sell out for us last year. We put it onto 'Dark Angel' this year. I think brining these OZ crosses into the TON mix will give us some tremendous results. I guess we will find out in 100 months or so (somehow sounds less intimidating than 8+ years!)

Dave
 

Duck Slipper

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This is an excellent topic to read and follow. All of the different opinions, of different crosses and breeding is fascinating. Tarantula and King Kong, growth hormones, phytohormones, colchicine. Interesting thread!
 

Justin

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My division of MM reached 31cm NS this year. Will post some pics when I get a chance.
 

kiwi

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I look forward to the photos. Justin what do you think are the most important factors to ensure that roths flower? Apart from age.
 

Paph Paradise

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I look forward to the photos. Justin what do you think are the most important factors to ensure that roths flower? Apart from age.
The Orchid Zone used to force blooming out of season in February for sales during show season. The accomplished this by chilling the plants in late fall, then ramping up the temperature. Terry grew these plants very warm with nights at 65 F as I recall.

Along with good nutrition including calcium, roths need plenty of light and warmth to beat their best. We had a cold, exceptionally wet and dark winter and it was our poorest blooming season ever for them. Low flower counts and short spikes with flowers in the foliage.

Dave
 
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