Paph. primulinum / Pinocchio / Avalon Mist (Again)

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shakkai

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Here's the 5th flower on the plant I bought that was labelled Paph. primulinum (from a quite reputable vendor). There are still more buds on this spike, and it looks like another fan is matured and about to send up a second spike.



Whatever it is, I still think its quite pretty!
 
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nikv

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Very pretty! By the way, what about this flower makes you sure that it's a hybrid? Just curious.
 

shakkai

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Nik, Size mostly, I'd say. Plus I think the pouch is too white to be the species.
 
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nikv

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Thank you. I'm not a taxonomist, but I've heard that there's a smaller variety and a larger variety of primulinum. I used to see advertisers mention that they had the larger variety for sale in their ads. Not sure what that all means.
 

shakkai

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Thanks, Fren!

Dot, I was under the impression that there are a lot of mislabelled (and even some 'mis-awarded' primulinums that are actually hybrids. I think its a case of being overly sceptical on my part? But when I've seen a 'real' primulinum, it was quite a lot smaller and definitely a lot more yellow than this one. I know there can be quite a variation in species, and it is possible that the line bred plants have increased in size.

But whatever it is, I do really like it, as it has this cute 'perkiness' to it.
 

SlipperKing

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There are many examples of primulinum v flavum and purpurascens on line. If you look for older posting, you have a better level of assurance of the real deal. Two key things I look for is , squared off (bottom) staminode and crinkling pattern in the dorsal. The purpurascens varity is not a hard one to confuse and if it is only the colored varity of the flavum primulinum, these traits will be the same.
http://www.orchidspecies.com/paphprimulinum.htm
 

slippertalker

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There is a fair amount of conjecture that white pouched Paph primulinums are actually hybrids with another cochlopetalum species involved. Paph Avalon Mist is a great example as are sib crosses of Paph Pinnochio. The primary difference is larger size and a white pouch.

The white pouched "primulinums" are a relatively new thing, and all of the jungle plants I saw were pure yellow. It is possible that selective breeding could give a white pouch.............
 

shakkai

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The bottom of the staminode on mine is tapered to a point like a shield. It isn't as square along the bottom as the one in the IOSPE photo.

So, I guess more weight to the theory that its a hybrid and not the species.
 

shakkai

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Thanks for the additional information! I think the debate can (and probably will) go on for quite a long time, but do think that there are so many mislabelled plants out there that its nearly impossible to be completely sure whether something is an improvement due to line breeding, or a hybrid.
 

SlipperKing

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I would think if you where to line breed primulinum, which people have done, you would always get the same shaped staminode. This is the case with almost all other species with the exception of the brachis. I feel these two groups have been poorly handle over the years. IMO
 

SlipperFan

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Dot, I was under the impression that there are a lot of mislabelled (and even some 'mis-awarded' primulinums that are actually hybrids. I think its a case of being overly sceptical on my part? But when I've seen a 'real' primulinum, it was quite a lot smaller and definitely a lot more yellow than this one. I know there can be quite a variation in species, and it is possible that the line bred plants have increased in size.

But whatever it is, I do really like it, as it has this cute 'perkiness' to it.
Me, too. So I guess I'd best look for an Avalon Mist rather than a white-pouched primulinum.

BTW, I thought primulinum v. album is just plain primulinum.
 

shakkai

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Looking through past threads here, I think mine matches Avalon Mist most closely (though I still think its a good form for whatever it is....) in terms of colour, size, and staminode shape.

And yes, it is also my understanding that the type form of primulinum is the 'album' version - a freak occurance of the population of 'album' forms being found before any of the coloured forms were found and described (now v. purpurescens).

I have seen in previous discussions the "v. album" being used to describe the white pouched primulinum (to distinguish it from the yellow pouched ones), but that's at best a 'trade name'. See: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=57587&postcount=7

Here is another thread I found with some interesting information:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=15972#post15972
 

shakkai

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I would think if you where to line breed primulinum, which people have done, you would always get the same shaped staminode. This is the case with almost all other species with the exception of the brachis. I feel these two groups have been poorly handle over the years. IMO

Yes, I would expect the staminode to be consistent in line bred species. A good reason to think that mine is not really primulinum.

Thanks for all of the help guys!
 

SlipperKing

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Thanks for the links Shakkai. Those kinds of discussions really get me fire up! The background info is really helpful.
 
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