Paph liemianums ? More like before

[gore42]

Well, here are two more blooms from the same batch from Malaysia. Actually, the plants came from Sumatra, originally... the divisions came from Malaysia. Anyway, I think that these are Paph liemianum, too (they were sold to me as chamberlainianum).

If any of you disagree on the taxonomy, please let me know. In fact, if you agree agree that they are liemianum, also let me know... I'm always interested to hear the grounds for distinction for these sorts of things.

Anyway, here is one bloom:

If the pattern on the dorsal sepal were a lot darker on this one, I might consider calling it chamberlainianum instead.


and here is the bloom on another plant...

Whatever they are, I'm pretty happy with them. While in WA, I also got a new chamberlainianum and some primulinum purpurescens, so I'll have some better comparitive specimens soon.

- Matthew Gore

EDIT: I'm just sticking in the photo of the first of these to bloom, for comparison. It looks a lot more like liemianum to me than these others (except for the size).

 

[slippertalker]

What does the foliage look like? These plants could be liemianum or an intergrade with another species, or a hybrid. It's a bit confusing, and there is a natural variation involved in many species also.

Most of the original liemianum imports had very clear color contrasts between the green dorsal and the white apical margin. Chamberlainianum has very prominent dark markings in the dorsal which these plants don't have.

This is part of the fun of blooming newly imported jungle plants......

 

[Rick]

They look about 90% leimianum to me. The white border on the DS is not as even and well defined as I've seen, but it is apparent.

 

[gore42]

The leaves on these things look like the leaves on my liemianums; there is some light tessellation, but they are mostly just dark green. These are big old leaves (since they are divisions) so they are a bit undulate, too. I've been looking at some taxonomy books but can't find any distinguishing characteristics between liemianum and chamberlainianum except for the bloom.

Considering the fact that the first bloom that I got was TINY, and these are all a little small and odd, their irregularity may just be the result of the fact that they are recent divisions and have been shipped across the world, and will need some time to get back on their feet again.

- Matt

 

[SlipperFan]

I'm going out on a limb and say that I think they are a cross between liemianum and chamberlainianum. Look at Robert's photos in this thread:
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1512&highlight=Chamberlainianum

 

[gore42]

Dot,

I think that the photos posted in that thread are really great photos of the most typical forms, but after looking at photos around the net all day, there seems to be quite a bit of variation... many of the liemianums I've seen show some dorsal sepal marking that are similar to mine. Both of these do have a distinct white margin around the dorsal, although it doesn't look especially clear in the photos.

However, my understanding is that the ranges of these two species are not very distant from each other. I could easily imagine some of the genes from one population getting into the other. Hmm... if this is a natural hybrid, maybe I should write up a description and name it

However, I've looked at severl photos of Paph Salvador Dali (chamberlainianum x liemianum) and these just don't show enough chamberlainianum to be a primary hybrid (just my humble opinion, I guess I haven't seen enough of them to be sure). Here's a photo of one:

Thanks Stephen

Mine don't really look like this. Maybe I should open a topic in the taxonomy forum.

- Matt

 

[gore42]

I don't know... the more I look, the more they DO look like that hybrid.

- Matt

 

[kentuckiense]

I definitely think there's some introgression going on. I think it'd be unwise to compare them to 50/50 hybrids and make a decision off that analysis. There are likely many generations of backcrossing and occasional introgression if they are indeed of hybrid origin. Let's run some assays!

 

[gore42]

I'm inclined to agree, Zach. Calling it introgression seems to imply that there are two distinct, "pure" populations, though, which are being mixed... and that is what I'm really curious about. I've seen quite a bit of variation in liemianums, even within my own plants... and the group posted above seems to make it possible that there is one continuous population, and what we know as liemianum and chamberlainianum are just at different ends of a continuum.

Guess I'll keep looking into it.

Matt