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Paph godefroyae

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gore42

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None of you will be surprised to hear that this bloom isn't quite open yet. Yesterday was the first day that it was really mostly open, and it looks like it still needs a few days to finish up. But its Sunday and I have the time :) So, here are the first pictures:







I believe that most people would consider this godefroyae var. leucochilum, or some might consider it Paph leucochilum var. hemixanthinum.

Hope you like it, and I'll do a 3D and post more photos when it opens all the way.

- Matt
 
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gore42

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Likespaphs,

leucochilum is considered by some to be a variety of godefroyae, others consider it a species. Honestly, I'm not sure what the difference is.

The few gedefroyae that I've seen in person have much finer spots, and sometimes have spots on the pouch, and have an otherwise white bloom. The leucochilums that I've seen tend to have the ivory colored flower (but are sometimes white), and more robust sptting, with no spots on the pouch. However, I've only seen a few of each myself, and I don't know how accurately they were labeled. One of these days I'll take the time to read through Cribb's section in the Genus Paphiopedilum and see what he has to say.

If anyone else has any input on the matter, I'd be happy to hear it.

As Ever,
Matthew Gore
 
G

gore42

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Lance Birk emailed me this morning with a some photos and some helpful information regarding the taxonomy of this species. He mentioned that I could pass it along to the forum, and I am doing so :)

The flower you posted is P. leucochilum...probably. The only way I could be certain is if it is a collected (not necessarily imported) plant. In my paph book I show both species and it is easy to tell the difference.

P. godefroyae is a variable species coming from the Gulf of Siam. The attached photo is a good example of the original species as it was collected in the western side of the gulf. I collected my plant very near Koh Ang Thong...supposedly the cited location for the species. Flower texture is different from P. leucochilum in that these are almost 'thin' and dull. Shape is mostly like my example but can also vary. I don't have other photos scanned at present so can't include them here.

P. luecochilum comes from the Gulf of Krabi area on the other side of the Tennaserim mtn range. Neither species occurs on the other's range. This species has very heavily textured flowers with a shiny, almost waxy feel. As you can see, shapes vary also. Most pouches are solid white, but some will have spots. About one in four plants will produce creamy-yellow flowers, but it is very rare for P. godefroyae to produce this color variation.
And these were the attached photos:

Paph. godefroyae



and these three are Paph. leucochilum:









Thanks Lance, and I hope this is also useful to the rest of you.

As Ever,
Matthew Gore
 

WolfDog1 (C. Williams)

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Lance/Matt,

T H A N K Y O U !!!!
I have a minicompot of leucochilum and saw some
orchids at a 'show' this weekend labeled as such.
However, I didn't pick one up because I thought they
were not. Now I feel more certain that I was right in
my assessment.

This is VERY helpful.

Thank you again,

Craig
 

truemadman

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Thanks for the descriptions of the two. However having seen the four pictures, a question came up. Which side of the equation would the below paph fall in to?:confused:





Thanks

Truemadman
 

Lance Birk

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Truemadman,

First of all, does anyone here think that your flower resembles either of Matt's or my photos? The answer is simple.....No!

Your plant is a perfect example of screwing with Mother Nature and is the result of a lack of clarity among botanists. It is also a result of selective breeding.

People like Phil Cribb who lump species together into broad categories such as he has done by joining both P. godefroyae and P. leucochilum into one species: P. godefroyae, show they do not understand all the differences there are between these two species. Phil bases his identifications of these two plants on dead, dried-out, mutilated and partially decomposed herbarium sheets that are decades old....maybe older. He also reads notes made by collectors who NEVER would reveal the true locations of their finds for fear that another collector would 'steal' his plants.

I have been to these locations, several times, and the data posted above are correct. I spent many years trying to figure out just what is happening between these two distinct species and I wrote my decision in my latest paph book. If growers read and understand these differences it will certainly clear up any confusion they might have about them.

To me, clarity eliminates chaos, but some taxonomists lack either the knowledge or the courage to declare certain look-alike species as separate.

We also have these same problems affecting species like P. lowii, such as may be influencing Truemadman's P. lowii in another thread. Also affected are P. callosum and P. viniferum, P. curtisii and P. superbiens, P. hirsutissimum, P. esquirolei and P. chiwuanum, ...but there are others, too. And then there are the Cochlopetalums.

When taxonomists are able to categorize distinct and constant differences within certain groups of flowers, into separate, readily identifiable taxa, it then allows orchidists the ability to engage in logical and intelligent conversations, knowing they are both talking about the SAME species. To do otherwise only prokmotes chaos and doubt.

Worse......When breeders cross distinctly different, yet same-named species together, we have the results shown above with Truemadman's flower. This flower is the results of breeders inter-crossing SELECTED clones of P. leucochilum, or more likely, crossing selected clones of the two species together, and maybe even adding P. bellatulum into the mix....it's hard to tell. In fact, it is impossible to tell. Also, I have seen results of SELECTIVE breeding in Thailand that produce flowers entirely different from the original species, yet they are still the same species.

When breeders cross P. callosum with P. viniferum, or the several forms of P. lowii amongst themselves, where does it leave us now? We do not have the ability to know the true names of our plants anymore. Collecting is outlawed and there really is no way we can know for sure. I've seen so many mis-identified orchids in this forum, I just can't believe what is happening now. It's all very frustrating....at least to me.

So madman, just stick whatever label you have into your pot. I'd say it is a cross of selected clones of P. bellatulum, but it could also be a cross of selected forms of both P. leucochilum and P. godefroyae, but who knows? Maybe not even the breeder.
 

truemadman

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Hi Lance,

Thanks for a very long comment.

The picture I posted is actually a cross between paph leucochilum and a "distinct" form of paph godefroyae.

This distinct form of paph godefroyae is rather small in both plant and flower size. It came from the east side of the peninsular. The “said” original location is a group of islands up north of Kho Ang Thong. The odd thing about this form that sets it apart from the rest is the heavy spots/marking on the pouch and rather darker marking all over the flower. This heavy spots pouch character would usually pass on to next (F1, F2 ….) generations.

This very picture, to me, is a representative of plants from that location, as I do not have a picture of the true one. Sorry about that :sob: The intention of the breeder was to improve color (from this distinct form) and size (from paph leucochilum.) No paph bellatulum involved! I’ll try to locate a picture of the “true” distinct form plant and post it.

Having seen the pictures of paph godefroyae in the paph. growers manual Book I, (which has always been our source of reference) to some of us, this heavy spots pouch group of plant is a “true” paph godefroyae (as distinct from paph leucochilum.) At that time, paph ang thong was not considered to be within this group yet!

My question is then, what would be your suggested classification of this heavy spots pouch form, so that we can avoid any future mistakes of unknowingly crossing one race with others within this complex, which so far include paph godefroyae, paph leucochilum and paph ang thong. Or should we call all of them paph godefroyae as suggested by some?:poke:

Truemadman
 

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