Paph exul ?

[Leo Schordje]

David your exul looks like the my other exul, compact, stiff and green, though I notice just a hint of color at the edge of leaves at the leaf bases, or is that brown due to aging? Anyway, the vegetative growth of my exul that I pictured was the reason I did not think twice about the insigne label until it actually bloomed. I think the primary of (insigne x exul) would show more insigne in the flower. Finer spotting, more crinkle on the petal edges, etc. If this is a hybrid, it might be ((insigne x exul) x exul) but I would think, why would anyone bother doing that cross? I don't know. I really am curious if anyone else got these seedlings out of California.

 

[emydura]

though I notice just a hint of color at the edge of leaves at the leaf bases, or is that brown due to aging? .

Just aging. There is no real colour at the base.

David

 

[Rick]

David your exul looks like the my other exul, compact, stiff and green, though I notice just a hint of color at the edge of leaves at the leaf bases, or is that brown due to aging? Anyway, the vegetative growth of my exul that I pictured was the reason I did not think twice about the insigne label until it actually bloomed. I think the primary of (insigne x exul) would show more insigne in the flower. Finer spotting, more crinkle on the petal edges, etc. If this is a hybrid, it might be ((insigne x exul) x exul) but I would think, why would anyone bother doing that cross? I don't know. I really am curious if anyone else got these seedlings out of California.

I agree with your logic Leo, but could it also be possible that the backcross of vigorous intermediate growing exuls could have been the motive?

This one is a stumper for me. The history of the labeling is also difficult to get around. It kind of reminds me of the parrishii/dianthum issue. The flowers are obviously different but at one time dianthum was considered just a variety of parrishii. I think a lot of hybrids and misslabled plants are out there now because of the close taxonomy. I bought a plant from Oak hill labled as parrishii that bloomed out as dianthum, but I always wonder whether or not there was a lot of gene exchange going on by breeders before the taxonomists separated them better. Same for hirsutisimum/esquirolei.

I think a lot of breeding is done for vigor as well as developing certain flower traits.

 

[NYEric]

I have no idea!

 

[slippertalker]

Perhaps this is more a matter of variation within a species concept. It does look like exul, and while I'm not aware of the variation of exul , if a species has a widely dispersed growing region it is possible for specific endemic variation of plant growth, flower morphology, etc. We are seeing this commonly in the barbigerum group of flowers recently discovered and that are variations on a theme with traits that show a close relationship but with color, size and growth differences.

 

[emydura]

Perhaps this is more a matter of variation within a species concept. It does look like exul, and while I'm not aware of the variation of exul , if a species has a widely dispersed growing region it is possible for specific endemic variation of plant growth, flower morphology, etc. We are seeing this commonly in the barbigerum group of flowers recently discovered and that are variations on a theme with traits that show a close relationship but with color, size and growth differences.

Is there a lot of variation in exul? I thought it was found on one small island.

David

 

[Leo Schordje]

Lance Birk's book says Krabi and nearby surounding areas, Thailand. Sounds like a small area to me. I don't know how isolating the geography in that location is.

 

[Rick]

Cribb's book points to continued debate as to whether exul is a variety or subspecies of insigne. Apparently the original name of this plant was Cypripedium insigne var exul in 1891. It's habitat / range is very isolated, and I think exul is derived from exile because of its remote habit.

I know that everything is prone to some level of variation, but insigne seems to have a much wider range of variation than exul.

The drawings of exul vs insigne staminodes in Cribb's book could be useful. For insigne the lower notch appears to have either some fine hair or serration in it while the while the U shaped notch in exul looks smooth.

The red base color and floppy plant habit could be diagnostic.

 

[slippertalker]

I read through my library this morning and there is some varying information on this species. Braem starts calling it a variety and then in later publications calls it a closely related species. He also says that it is native to the east coast of the Malay peninsula in Thailand on islands along the coast.

Cribb in his early work calls it a species but also indicates that it has a range on both sides of the peninsula. Cash concurs with this.....Birk agrees with Braem on the location.

The plant has never been common in collections, but it doesn't seem to be endangered. I will have to look at my old Orchid Digest meanderings of Fowlie, etc to see what they say.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Ah, the "Awash in the Bitter Sea" series by Jack Fowlie, I really enjoyed that series, I have no idea where that stack of OD is at now. I need to dig.

 

[UweM]

The article about exul is in OD 4/76.

The leave of the exul are very strong. Here you find my exuls:

Uwe

 

[Leo Schordje]

Hi Uwe, thank you for posting your pictures. I think your flower and my flower agree nicely with each other, the hair pattern at the base of the staminode is nearly identical between both flowers. Staminode looks identical. The spot pattern in the dorsal is nearly identical. I think it is safe to label my plant "exul" based on the flower. The only question is due to the vegetative habit and the large size of the flower. I really don't see any insigne in my flower.
Thanks

 

[paphjoint]

Hey Leo - this is wishful thinking to me
look at the flower proportions - for instance the dorsal on your flower is much more oblong (ovoid) than the pictures above

I don't mind you called it an exul though but don't cross it with anything ;-)

Happy new year

Hi Uwe, thank you for posting your pictures. I think your flower and my flower agree nicely with each other, the hair pattern at the base of the staminode is nearly identical between both flowers. Staminode looks identical. The spot pattern in the dorsal is nearly identical. I think it is safe to label my plant "exul" based on the flower. The only question is due to the vegetative habit and the large size of the flower. I really don't see any insigne in my flower.
Thanks

 

[Leo Schordje]

Hey Leo - this is wishful thinking to me
look at the flower proportions - for instance the dorsal on your flower is much more oblong (ovoid) than the pictures above

I don't mind you called it an exul though but don't cross it with anything ;-)

Happy new year

Point well taken. And I will heed this advice. No plans to breed with this plant. I will not be propagating it as "the real" exul.