Paph ceramensis (or cerveranum ) ?

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myxodex

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When this young plant, bought as "ceramensis" begun opening it's first flower I was astonished by just how red both the pouch and the petals were. By the third day (next pic) the pouch was already greening-up and the petals had lost the initial intensity of red colour.

This is reminiscent of a plant posted by Olaf previously. http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10698&highlight=amabile
At 10 days the petals were pale purple, magenta or pink depending on light source.

This flower lasted about 10 weeks and faded a bit more but not nearly as much as in the first week.
For comparison here is my amabile, which also fades from a deep pink (although not as deep as the ceramensis) in the first week after opening.


The two plants together.

I can't help but think these,despite the differences, are the same species. Here are the staminodes photographed in bright sunlight.

Both are pubescent, both have a central ventral tooth which is blood red when seen in bright light and covered by a transparent layer which looks as though it might be some sort of exudate (could also be cellular ... I don't have a microscope). I wonder what others think but I'm coming to think that both these are cerveranum. In the UK at international shows, I've seen what I feel is the same species, displayed and sold by a number of vendors (or local societies) as appletonianum or cerveranum (when the petals are narrow), but otherwise as bullenianum, amabile, robinsonii, celebesense and ceramensis when the petals are broader. I bought a plant as celebesense which is similar to the above two and is no way a genuine celebesense. By way of contrast here is an old pic of my tortipetalum.

I have no problem seeing this plant as allied to the bullenianum concept, but the first two above ... hmmm ?
Cheers,
Tim
 
Very interesting comparison. I'm not paph species person but there is a big diff between the top and bottom photos to me. Thanx for sharing.
 
Gorgeous flower. I don't know about you but I would have been thrilled if it didn't fade.
 
I would have a hard time jstifying the two were different species based on the staminodes. They looklike they fall within what I would expect was typical variance. Bt the "N" is awfully small! ;)
 
When this young plant, bought as "ceramensis" begun opening it's first flower I was astonished by just how red both the pouch and the petals were. By the third day (next pic) the pouch was already greening-up and the petals had lost the initial intensity of red colour.

This is reminiscent of a plant posted by Olaf previously. http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10698&highlight=amabile
At 10 days the petals were pale purple, magenta or pink depending on light source.

This flower lasted about 10 weeks and faded a bit more but not nearly as much as in the first week.
For comparison here is my amabile, which also fades from a deep pink (although not as deep as the ceramensis) in the first week after opening.


The two plants together.

I can't help but think these,despite the differences, are the same species. Here are the staminodes photographed in bright sunlight.

Both are pubescent, both have a central ventral tooth which is blood red when seen in bright light and covered by a transparent layer which looks as though it might be some sort of exudate (could also be cellular ... I don't have a microscope). I wonder what others think but I'm coming to think that both these are cerveranum. In the UK at international shows, I've seen what I feel is the same species, displayed and sold by a number of vendors (or local societies) as appletonianum or cerveranum (when the petals are narrow), but otherwise as bullenianum, amabile, robinsonii, celebesense and ceramensis when the petals are broader. I bought a plant as celebesense which is similar to the above two and is no way a genuine celebesense. By way of contrast here is an old pic of my tortipetalum.

I have no problem seeing this plant as allied to the bullenianum concept, but the first two above ... hmmm ?
Cheers,
Tim
The two above are Paph cerveranum Braem
 
When this young plant, bought as "ceramensis" begun opening it's first flower I was astonished by just how red both the pouch and the petals were. By the third day (next pic) the pouch was already greening-up and the petals had lost the initial intensity of red colour.

This is reminiscent of a plant posted by Olaf previously. http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10698&highlight=amabile
At 10 days the petals were pale purple, magenta or pink depending on light source.

This flower lasted about 10 weeks and faded a bit more but not nearly as much as in the first week.
For comparison here is my amabile, which also fades from a deep pink (although not as deep as the ceramensis) in the first week after opening.


The two plants together.

I can't help but think these,despite the differences, are the same species. Here are the staminodes photographed in bright sunlight.

Both are pubescent, both have a central ventral tooth which is blood red when seen in bright light and covered by a transparent layer which looks as though it might be some sort of exudate (could also be cellular ... I don't have a microscope). I wonder what others think but I'm coming to think that both these are cerveranum. In the UK at international shows, I've seen what I feel is the same species, displayed and sold by a number of vendors (or local societies) as appletonianum or cerveranum (when the petals are narrow), but otherwise as bullenianum, amabile, robinsonii, celebesense and ceramensis when the petals are broader. I bought a plant as celebesense which is similar to the above two and is no way a genuine celebesense. By way of contrast here is an old pic of my tortipetalum.

I have no problem seeing this plant as allied to the bullenianum concept, but the first two above ... hmmm ?
Cheers,
Tim
the bottom one is avariety of appletonianum
 
Thanks to Dr. Braem for the clarification. I'm guessing that the prevalence for cerveranum being sold as anything in the appletonianum alliance in Europe results for a number of reasons :(i) indigenous Vietnamese paphs seem to be readily available in the trade, (ii) profound taxonomic confusion with these species and (iii) not least because cerveranum grows like a weed ... my "amabile" flowers twice a year.

I'm now confused however about the differences between appletonianum and bullenianum ? If anyone has a photo, (or link) of a bullenianum I'd be grateful.

Cheers,
Tim
 

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