One of the flowers with better form that I've bloomed from this cross from Arnold Klehm. Unfortunately, the barbigerum influence on the size is lost a bit in this plant. Barbilight = ([barbigerum x Kay Rinaman] x Nulight)
Paph Barbilight '#19'
- Thread starter Ross
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SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
Looks like a keeper. I guess cross it back to one of your other barb hybrids to bring plant size down and try to keep flower shape. Yes?
Yep, that one looks good. Funny, I had the same question as Rick. Are you going to proceed with this one on some other small hybrid/species, or are you planning a sib cross with a small Barbilight to get compact plants with good shape?
e-spice
Well-Known Member
Very nice form.
e-spice
e-spice
E
etex
Guest
Very cute bloom!
A good question. The barbigerum reflexed dorsal tends to dominate most flowers with barbigerum as a parent. As you can see, that problem begins to correct itself on some flowers when crossed to another complex, but the plant size also begins to increase. I may try a small complex without barbigerum in its genetics, or at least one where the barbigerum is a grandparent, like Little by Little.
Leo Schordje
wilted blossom
That is definitely one of the better Barbilights, I have bloomed a couple, and none were close to this quality. Very nice.
On further breeding;
Why go back to barbigerum? Why not use a mini with more color? I would use henryanum as it is compact (not so mini) and carries a lot of color, & spots to accent the spots you already have in the dorsal. Another possibility would be helenae, going more toward brown & sunset colors. A third would be to go to a brachy, knock out the greens & pick up pink, reds and spots over a white background.
my 2 cents
Nice plant to enjoy as is too
On further breeding;
Why go back to barbigerum? Why not use a mini with more color? I would use henryanum as it is compact (not so mini) and carries a lot of color, & spots to accent the spots you already have in the dorsal. Another possibility would be helenae, going more toward brown & sunset colors. A third would be to go to a brachy, knock out the greens & pick up pink, reds and spots over a white background.
my 2 cents
Nice plant to enjoy as is too
G
goldenrose
Guest
:clap::clap:It's a gorgeous Barbilight!
I don't think it shows the Kay Rinaman parent either, as they usually have the spice influence and there goes that dorsal again! This one survived the odds!
... helenae - that sounds good too!
...:drool: a brachy!!! How about that AWESOME Conco Lucia you have?
I don't think it shows the Kay Rinaman parent either, as they usually have the spice influence and there goes that dorsal again! This one survived the odds!
The only problem I could see with henry is, again the reflexing dorsal, otherwise :drool: ..... enter a henry X that doesn't have dorsal issues?
... helenae - that sounds good too!
...:drool: a brachy!!! How about that AWESOME Conco Lucia you have?
SlipperFan
Addicted
All these possibilities -- I'm getting dizzy!
Nice flower, Ross!
Nice flower, Ross!
The way I look at, there are two main issues with this plant: the size is too big, and the petal width is too narrow. Leo, read my earlier response more carefully. I have no intention on crossing back to barbigerum. I would only consider a complex with barbigerum at least two generations removed. The Little by Little that I would use would provide a healthy dose of henryanum as you have suggested, but it would also contribute a rounder dorsal than a straight henryanum.
Tim, as always, you provide another interesting idea in recombining the same genes. I've done this twice already with Paph Little Trouble and Paph Barb Hella.
One is still at the lab and the other my have its first plant bloom shortly. This is an interesting discussion. I welcome more suggestions. Carsten on rereading, I notice you have the same idea as Tim.
Tim, as always, you provide another interesting idea in recombining the same genes. I've done this twice already with Paph Little Trouble and Paph Barb Hella.
One is still at the lab and the other my have its first plant bloom shortly. This is an interesting discussion. I welcome more suggestions. Carsten on rereading, I notice you have the same idea as Tim.
i have to respectfully disagree with the use of henryanum as a parent in complex-ish breeding. even in OZ's Rainbow Sky line and its ilk the dominance of henryanum in making thin, muddy petals in my opinion ruins any chances of worthwhile hybrids. i understand the notions behind plants like this Little By Little and so forth, but to me they all inherit the same poor features - thin, muddy petals. Combinations with charlesworthii exacerbate the problem immensely.
Ross, your Barb Hella already has these tendencies towards thin petals and muddy color. I guess I'd be thinking hard about ways to eliminate those, and suggestions hitherto proposed will not in my opinion do that.
Here's a consideration - call up Dean Hung and see if he can't find you a Pacific Rainbow or Rainbow Sky from OZ (or something else - some Thinking Reeds are coming out small too) that is small and albinistic. Some, like the Pacific Rainbow here (http://aospacificcentral.org/OakAug2010/paphpacificrainbow.html), do have albinistic tendencies - at least these don't exacerbate the petal color issues.
Also of mention is crossing with not brachys, but complex x brachys, like Russ Palmer (of which this forum has seen many, check out more on the Orchid Zone website: www.theorchidzoneltd.com) for wider petals, smallish habit, and interesting colors. From Harold Koopowitz' minis, the best grex I've seen has been Betty Bracey x Skip Bartlett, so this line of breeding in some cases does work.
Lastly, a smallish complex called Hunter's Point (especially the clone 'Terry') might work well in this line - I have a plant that put up 3 flowers in a 4" pot last year, with excellent form and smallish leaves for a complex. That's a pretty common clone - I'm sure someone in your area has it (or save some pollen and I can put it on mine). There's a pic for those interested a slight scroll down this page: http://www.theorchidzoneltd.com/index_files/Page2172.htm.
I'm sure breeding teacups is really a challenge...it just doesn't seem like any answers are "right" in 100% of cases...
Ross, your Barb Hella already has these tendencies towards thin petals and muddy color. I guess I'd be thinking hard about ways to eliminate those, and suggestions hitherto proposed will not in my opinion do that.
Here's a consideration - call up Dean Hung and see if he can't find you a Pacific Rainbow or Rainbow Sky from OZ (or something else - some Thinking Reeds are coming out small too) that is small and albinistic. Some, like the Pacific Rainbow here (http://aospacificcentral.org/OakAug2010/paphpacificrainbow.html), do have albinistic tendencies - at least these don't exacerbate the petal color issues.
Also of mention is crossing with not brachys, but complex x brachys, like Russ Palmer (of which this forum has seen many, check out more on the Orchid Zone website: www.theorchidzoneltd.com) for wider petals, smallish habit, and interesting colors. From Harold Koopowitz' minis, the best grex I've seen has been Betty Bracey x Skip Bartlett, so this line of breeding in some cases does work.
Lastly, a smallish complex called Hunter's Point (especially the clone 'Terry') might work well in this line - I have a plant that put up 3 flowers in a 4" pot last year, with excellent form and smallish leaves for a complex. That's a pretty common clone - I'm sure someone in your area has it (or save some pollen and I can put it on mine). There's a pic for those interested a slight scroll down this page: http://www.theorchidzoneltd.com/index_files/Page2172.htm.
I'm sure breeding teacups is really a challenge...it just doesn't seem like any answers are "right" in 100% of cases...
Leo Schordje
wilted blossom
Sorry Ross, I didn't read your post carefuly. You are right, Little by Little would definitely be a better choice than henryanum.
Tim's suggestions sound pretty good also.
Tim's suggestions sound pretty good also.
There's a lot to digest and consider in your last post, Tim. I'll think about it and research a little more and try to respond after work, this evening. (another 10 hour shift
)
One interesting note: Wharton Sinkler made the cross Betty Bracey x Skip Bartlett. I know Hadley Cash got some from Winsome and I think some made their way into Harold's collection from there. I tried to purchase smaller one(s) from Winsome, after talking to Hadley, but Jim Bull wouldn't sell them at the time. Winsome's greenhouse burned down the next spring.
)One interesting note: Wharton Sinkler made the cross Betty Bracey x Skip Bartlett. I know Hadley Cash got some from Winsome and I think some made their way into Harold's collection from there. I tried to purchase smaller one(s) from Winsome, after talking to Hadley, but Jim Bull wouldn't sell them at the time. Winsome's greenhouse burned down the next spring.
I didn't mean to imply that those plants were Harold's breeding; at Paph guild either last year or the year before, he presented a group at the show, and that's the only place I've seen them. An altogether delightful grex, but I'd imagine some of standard size. The ones he showed were blooming with 1-2 flowers in 2.5" pots with leafspans of 8-10".
I should include that of course your breeding is totally up to you. It's fun sometimes to play armchair QB, but it's totally your call in the end, of course. You've certainly shown us some great stuff, and I'm sure that your end decisions will be great as well. I reread my other post, and I don't mean to come off harsh - sorry about that...
I should include that of course your breeding is totally up to you. It's fun sometimes to play armchair QB, but it's totally your call in the end, of course. You've certainly shown us some great stuff, and I'm sure that your end decisions will be great as well. I reread my other post, and I don't mean to come off harsh - sorry about that...
D
Darin
Guest
Tim,
You mention the muddy petals given when henryanum is in the mix. In your opinion can that be bred out in consecutive generations when mixed with a parent whose petals have nice color and size? You also mention charlesworthii as causing less than optimal petals, as it is a ancestor of many of todays complex hybrids do you feel the value it gives in the dorsal is worth the generations necessary to overcome the petal weakness?
Just learning not poking at you.
Great topic for discussion.
Darin
You mention the muddy petals given when henryanum is in the mix. In your opinion can that be bred out in consecutive generations when mixed with a parent whose petals have nice color and size? You also mention charlesworthii as causing less than optimal petals, as it is a ancestor of many of todays complex hybrids do you feel the value it gives in the dorsal is worth the generations necessary to overcome the petal weakness?
Just learning not poking at you.
Great topic for discussion.
Darin
I was just adding a little interesting side note to Betty Bracey x Skip Bartlett.
Keep up the suggestions and comment, Tim. Sometimes passion for a subject can come off sounding a little harsh. I'm guilty of this, too. To me, HOW something is said is NOT as important as WHAT is said. Your specific recommendations are always good, but your insight and approach to breeding challenges are what I find most valuable.
The issue of petal width is always in the back of my mind when breeding miniatures. It is the reason I have tried Brachy and Brachy "heavy" hybrids with mini's. This creates other sorts of flower problems, but I want to "establish" the genetics for wider petals into the breeding line for the benefit of future generations of complex mini's. I'm not looking at this as a one, two, or even three step process, but an ongoing project.
Tim has brought up good way of dealing with the narrowing of petals in (mini x standard complex) crosses. In the initial cross, certain dominance characteristics tend to run strong throughout the progeny. For instance, in all barbigerum x Complex flowers I've seen so far, the dorsals reflex in a similar fashion to the barbigerum parent. With Tim's suggestion of selfing or sibbing such a cross, the genes are recombined, with a certain percentage hopefully gaining the flatter, unreflexed dorsal of the Complex parent. This same cross should also produce a percentage of wider, flatter petals for the same reason
Good leads, Tim. I will try to follow up as things get settled in the greenhouse. I also hope to get out to California one of these January's for the Paphiopedilum Guild meeting and show.
I have also been pursuing breeding with some Skip Bartlett crosses using Paph Jennifer Ann Hella (Mildred Hunter x Skip Bartlett) and Paph Barbi's White Satin (barbigerum fma. aureum x White Knight). A few plants from my remake of Paph Lunacy are showng good promise of blooming on small plants and may aslo be used in the future.
I had hoped to add this plant to my breeding, but the single growth division I managed to get did not thrive under my culture, I'm embarrassed to admit.
Darin - pertaining to henryanum hybrids, I know of no complex-ish or mini crosses with henryanum influnce with nicely spotted dorsals and non-brown petals. The direction of the Pacific Rainbow I linked to is in my opinion the best - this plant had 4 flowers in a 4" pot and was really nicely formed, but is clear yellow with no influence from henryanum but plant size.
It is a misnomer to assume charlesworthii influence in modern complex breeding. it's simply not the case. If there was charlesworthii influence long ago, skinny brown petals have long been selected against, and it was only through generations of selecting that we've gotten away from them. Just look at some of the more modern charlesworthii x complex crosses - Sierra Sunrise, Woodrose, or Meditation - rarely, only very rarely do you get anything in petals but mud, and never small plants.
It is a misnomer to assume charlesworthii influence in modern complex breeding. it's simply not the case. If there was charlesworthii influence long ago, skinny brown petals have long been selected against, and it was only through generations of selecting that we've gotten away from them. Just look at some of the more modern charlesworthii x complex crosses - Sierra Sunrise, Woodrose, or Meditation - rarely, only very rarely do you get anything in petals but mud, and never small plants.
chrismende
Well-Known Member
Thanks, gentlement, for this most enlightening thread! I'm getting interested in minis myself and want to learn a lot before beginning to select breeding stock and ideas. We ought to have the topic at Paph Guild this year, again. It's on the top of many breeders' agendas, it seems...
