Paph. "barbigerum" (herrmannii?)

[Kavanaru]

I bought this seedling about 4 years ago in Germany. Labelled as "Paph. barbigerum x self, selected very small growing plant" It has finally bloomed, and I womder if it is not a herrmannii instead...

The plant is indeed a lot smaller than my herrmannii, and the flowers is a lot smaller as well... What confuses me, but am not sure if that is enough to separate, is the color diffence in the callus of the staminodium (orange in my herrmannii, green in my "barbigerum") Also the shape of the pouch is different... What would you say about this plant?


Paph. "barbigerum" by kavanaru, on Flickr

Side by side with herrmanni


Untitled by kavanaru, on Flickr

Untitled by kavanaru, on Flickr

"barbigerum" stami

Untitled by kavanaru, on Flickr

herrmannii stami

Untitled by kavanaru, on Flickr

 

[Mocchaccino]

herrmannii

 

[Kavanaru]

herrmannii

That's also what I think... Clearly not a barbigerum.... But since I have not seen many herrmannii at all, I was not aware this species was so variable: size, staminodium, pouch shape...

 

[Roth]

herrmanii, the plant and flower size are very variable for that 'species' or whatever it is truly...

 

[Kavanaru]

herrmanii, the plant and flower size are very variable for that 'species' or whatever it is truly...

Thanks Roth, but also the staminodium? Shape and colour...

I know herrmannii is thought to be a natural hybrid, and this would also explain variability of staminodium until certain extent... Just trying to learn more about herrmannii...

(P.S.- and still trying to get a true barbigerum... The two previous plants resulted in coccineum)

 

[Spaph]

Great growing! Interesting variation with hermannii.

 

[eggshells]

I call hermanii as well nice flower didnt know it was that big

 

[SlipperKing]

I have a barbigerum blooming now that looks just like yours!

 

[Leo Schordje]

your small plant is hermanii, no doubt. I have seen similar plant size differeces. It is a variable "species", but the flower is very consistient.

I had a long discussion with Leonid Averyanov about hermanii. The large size difference between the 2 plants has been observed by him. Also he makes a very good argument for hermanii to actually be a natural hybrid between helenae and the local sympatric form of hirsustissimum (I think it is the esquirolei form in Viet Nam, not sure I remember right).

Very nice, definitely a keeper.

 

[zebrasamorchid]

great color and shape

 

[Roth]

your small plant is hermanii, no doubt. I have seen similar plant size differeces. It is a variable "species", but the flower is very consistient.

I had a long discussion with Leonid Averyanov about hermanii. The large size difference between the 2 plants has been observed by him. Also he makes a very good argument for hermanii to actually be a natural hybrid between helenae and the local sympatric form of hirsustissimum (I think it is the esquirolei form in Viet Nam, not sure I remember right).

Very nice, definitely a keeper.

I heard Averyanov argument, but it is hard to agree with him for the parentage... because herrmanii has clearly a pink pouch that can only comes from henryanum. In Vietnam we have as well henryanum with plants the size of an OK helenae... so this could fit.

One more thing about the natural hybrids, I have got several times natural hybrids of 3 species. There is one massive colony in Ba Be national park that is clearly a hybrid colony with sinense, ensifolium or cyperifolium, and a third species ( apparently lowianum even...). henryanum, helenae and tranlienianum can grow together, and I have got natural hybrids of helenae and tranlienianum indeed. So an hybrid origin for herrmanii could well be esquirolei, helenae and henryanum...

 

[Hien]

Very nice & dark color

 

[Paph_LdyMacBeth]

Its beautiful even if mislabeled! I would not mind this mix up myself

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[Stone]

Yes its a beautiful plant. Great colour and you should maybe self it.

 

[Leo Schordje]

I heard Averyanov argument, but it is hard to agree with him for the parentage... because herrmanii has clearly a pink pouch that can only comes from henryanum. In Vietnam we have as well henryanum with plants the size of an OK helenae... so this could fit.

One more thing about the natural hybrids, I have got several times natural hybrids of 3 species. There is one massive colony in Ba Be national park that is clearly a hybrid colony with sinense, ensifolium or cyperifolium, and a third species ( apparently lowianum even...). henryanum, helenae and tranlienianum can grow together, and I have got natural hybrids of helenae and tranlienianum indeed. So an hybrid origin for herrmanii could well be esquirolei, helenae and henryanum...

I do think you have something there, and Leonid's argument is very strong that it is a natural hybrid, he is not as strong on the point of the putative parents. He says in his experience hermanii is rare compared to barbigerum, helenae, hirsustissimum & henryanum. For every 1 hermanii he saw in the wild, he would see thousands of the 4 species mentioned as more common. Where hermanii was found, it was physically nearby, usually slightly lower elevation than helenae, and hirsustissimum and other species, (here he didn't elaborate) would be found nearby often just a bit lower in elevation. So the helenae was above & the others were close just below. Therefore the rarity of hermanii in the wild, and its occurance only where two or more species are in close proximity does argue well for hermanii being of hybrid origin. Its relative abundance in European orchid collections is due entirely to collectors seeking out the 'different' one that they can get a bit more for.

Still, it is a very nice natural hybrid, something to cherish.

 

[SlipperFan]

It is nice, and quite dark. I'd be pleased to have it.

 

[Mrs. Paph]

Thanks for the pictures, and for the interesting discussion everyone I agree with Leo, a very nice natural hybrid! I would enjoy having one!