Paph. appletonianum v. hainanense

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DrLeslieEe

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Very majestic looking flowers. Reminds me of a Tudor lady of the court.
 

Ray

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Can someone educate me here?

There is appletonianum and hainanense. Some say they are synonymous. Some pick a middle ground by assigning the appletonium v. hainanense varietal name, while others say it isn’t really a variety as the populations on- and off the island are the same.

Has anyone come up with a definite, logical resolution?
 

Don I

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I never can remember how you can distinguish them apart. I certainly don't know the technical arguments. It is a graceful flower with what could be wings.
Don
 

GuRu

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Can someone educate me here?

There is appletonianum and hainanense. Some say they are synonymous. Some pick a middle ground by assigning the appletonium v. hainanense varietal name, while others say it isn’t really a variety as the populations on- and off the island are the same.

Has anyone come up with a definite, logical resolution?
According to The Plantlist P. appletonianum is the one and only accepted name. All others are synonyms. Look here http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/search?q=Paphiopedilum+appletonianum+
 

BrucherT

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Lol I can’t believe you guys (orchidists) have not figured out how to do DNA! I mean, if we can get it done for mushrooms, how are you not running sequences on every plant?
 

Ray

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Lol I can’t believe you guys (orchidists) have not figured out how to do DNA! I mean, if we can get it done for mushrooms, how are you not running sequences on every plant?
We’ll send you the bill...
 

bill u.

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Ray, I believe that Fowlei and Cribb note distinguishing features of this variety vs the rest of the species. While I have not read those descriptions, I have seen others note differences such as tendency for more stark tessellation pattern on leaves due to color contrast, slightly smaller leafspan, and shorter flower stem. Of course, the fact that there's wide variation in appletonianum, so that doesn't make the distinction easy. I remember some leaf difference when I had some v. hainanense sitting next to "normal" appletonianum in the past in my own collection. I will see if I can dig up about other people's noted differences.

BrucherT, not only is it expensive, but also the distinction of varietal vs species in such ploidy-flexible organisms can be extremely difficult to establish a standardized evaluation and distinction process. There is disagreement among those who do the sequencing of what should be the emphasis/basis of evaluation, for if you are establishing species, varietals, etc based on solely mitochondrial DNA vs almost any other sequence, there have already been mismatches between the studies as to how it would be categorized. It also does not help that quite often, when 2 varieties of a species are crossed together, the resulting progeny just get lumped under the "umbrella" species name. This further muddies the waters on DNA analysis. While I am not at all versed in mushroom hybridization, I am inclined to think that it has not been as extensive as orchid breeding lines.
 

Phred

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I’ve had several of each. For the longest time I thought distinguishing them apart was easy. The hainanense I had were all very small... 3-3.5” leaves, light green and shorter influences. The appletonianum I had were darker and much bigger. I’m always looking for better flowers to make crosses with so I have replaced my original collection of appletonianum and hainanense with a couple new ones that had better flowers. The appletonianum is smaller than the others I’ve had and the hainanense is bigger. The pattern and color are different but I don’t know that you could say it was definitive nor does two make a concensus.

appletonianum
8C435E60-0980-491D-91D5-D66F864FDA25.jpeg
Left: hainanense Right: appletonianum
25936030-6A07-4739-BCFE-06A1E7A217AD.jpeg
hainanense
169B0347-9566-40E8-98C3-9DDB56B8C804.jpeg
 

BrucherT

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Ray, I believe that Fowlei and Cribb note distinguishing features of this variety vs the rest of the species. While I have not read those descriptions, I have seen others note differences such as tendency for more stark tessellation pattern on leaves due to color contrast, slightly smaller leafspan, and shorter flower stem. Of course, the fact that there's wide variation in appletonianum, so that doesn't make the distinction easy. I remember some leaf difference when I had some v. hainanense sitting next to "normal" appletonianum in the past in my own collection. I will see if I can dig up about other people's noted differences.

BrucherT, not only is it expensive, but also the distinction of varietal vs species in such ploidy-flexible organisms can be extremely difficult to establish a standardized evaluation and distinction process. There is disagreement among those who do the sequencing of what should be the emphasis/basis of evaluation, for if you are establishing species, varietals, etc based on solely mitochondrial DNA vs almost any other sequence, there have already been mismatches between the studies as to how it would be categorized. It also does not help that quite often, when 2 varieties of a species are crossed together, the resulting progeny just get lumped under the "umbrella" species name. This further muddies the waters on DNA analysis. While I am not at all versed in mushroom hybridization, I am inclined to think that it has not been as extensive as orchid breeding lines.
No one is doing “mushroom hybridization,” it’s mating types. DNA is widely used to determine species. Mushroom clubs working with the Mycoflora Project have they price around $10 per specimen.
 

BrucherT

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Ray, I believe that Fowlei and Cribb note distinguishing features of this variety vs the rest of the species. While I have not read those descriptions, I have seen others note differences such as tendency for more stark tessellation pattern on leaves due to color contrast, slightly smaller leafspan, and shorter flower stem. Of course, the fact that there's wide variation in appletonianum, so that doesn't make the distinction easy. I remember some leaf difference when I had some v. hainanense sitting next to "normal" appletonianum in the past in my own collection. I will see if I can dig up about other people's noted differences.

BrucherT, not only is it expensive, but also the distinction of varietal vs species in such ploidy-flexible organisms can be extremely difficult to establish a standardized evaluation and distinction process. There is disagreement among those who do the sequencing of what should be the emphasis/basis of evaluation, for if you are establishing species, varietals, etc based on solely mitochondrial DNA vs almost any other sequence, there have already been mismatches between the studies as to how it would be categorized. It also does not help that quite often, when 2 varieties of a species are crossed together, the resulting progeny just get lumped under the "umbrella" species name. This further muddies the waters on DNA analysis. While I am not at all versed in mushroom hybridization, I am inclined to think that it has not been as extensive as orchid breeding lines.
Hey Bill, here’s the link to NAMP (North American Mycoflora Project, which should have been Mycofunga but live and learn). http://mycoflora.org/index.php/reso...dsourcing-fungal-biodiversity-citizen-science
 

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