Pahiopedilum niveum (var. ang thong?)

Discussion in 'Taxonomy' started by Kavanaru, Apr 26, 2009.

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  1. Apr 26, 2009 #1
    As most of you already may know I have started with Paphiopedilum not very long ago. I have learned a lot so far (IMO), but there are still many many grey zones in which I could hardly be confident to provide an "intelligent" opinion (a non intelligent one, can be provided any time :D)

    One of these grey zones is how to tell apart some different Brachypetalum species.

    Today, I went to a small orchids show (it was announced as "1000 rarities from all over the world", but to be honest... well... no bad comments here ;))

    At this show, the only plants that really called my attention was whole set of "first time bloom seedlings" of Paphiopedilum niveum (var. ang thong). I had never seen paph. niveum before (only pictures) and decided to gice it a try. I have selected from all the plants left (it was the last day of the show) what I considered the two best plants (nice colors, nice shape of both plants and flowers, and not dehydrated - as some of them were very dehydrated)

    During a short discussion with the seller, he said that even though the tags said Paphiopedilum niveum var. ang thong, he was completelly sure they were not ang thong but pure niveum.

    (Note: the seller was not the owner of the plants being sold - He was just helping and nobody from the nursery was there. I must admit I had never heard about this nursery, but after having seen some of their plants I think they are a bit messy)

    What do you think about this two plants? - both regarding quality and regarding ID

    The plant with white lip has heavily red dotted under-leave (almost uniformly red), while the one with dotted lip has light green under-leave (not a single red spot!)

    Both plants are 8 cm tall (incl. inflorescence) and the flowers are (white lip) 4.5 cm and (dotted lip) 5.5 cm wide.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Apr 26, 2009 #2

    Elena

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    Koopowitz says that the easiest way to tell pure niveum apart is by the size of the satminode. Pure niveum has staminode that's "as wide as the base of the pouch".

    I find the whole ang-thong business quite confusing. Some people say it's a natural hybrid between niveum and godefroyae, Cribb says it's just godefroyae...:sob:
     
  3. Apr 26, 2009 #3

    Ernie

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    These look way to spotty to me to be pure niveum.

    -Ernie
     
  4. Apr 27, 2009 #4

    Roy

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    This is confusing to an extent, the RHS lists P.ang-thong as niveum x godefroyae "natural hybrid" with the man made version as P. Greyi.
    It is also noted that P. ang-thong be known as P.godefroyae variety in some areas as you say, in fact I think in the RHS Names & Parentage registrations it is treated as godefroyae but Greyi as Greyi.

    The flower posted here I agree with Ernie, the markings PLUS the general shape of the flower is wrong for ang-thong, its a straight P. niveum.
     
  5. Apr 27, 2009 #5

    SlipperKing

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    I have to agree with Ernie, too spotty. The labels would be "more" correct then the step-in vender!
     
  6. Apr 27, 2009 #6
    Thanks @ all for the comments!

    I am still quite confused... :(

    Ernie & SlipperKing say "ang thong", and Roy says to agree with Ernie but point the plants to be pure "niveum"... I assuem a typo, right?

    On the other hand, if "ang thong" is basically the same as "Greyi", then both should be similar, right?

    I have this plant, which I bought from quite serious nursery and which is labelled as Paph. Greyi. If we compare itwith the two Paphies posted here, it is quite different: flowers are 6-7 cm wide, the plant has bigger leave (deep red spotted on the underside), and the inflorescens is not as strong (it cannot really hold the flower)

    First time bloom seedling: [​IMG]


    Second bloom (3 months later): [​IMG]
     
  7. Apr 27, 2009 #7

    Roy

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    Location:
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    There is no 'typo' the flower on the right in your first post is not P.ang-thong, it is P. niveum.
    The variation between the 'natural hybrid' P.ang-thong and P. Greyi is generally great. Its all due to the parents used by selective breeding in a nursery against natures selection. The majority of P.ang-thong collected in the wild have a general triangular shape of the older style P.godefroyae flowers and the markings are as 'lines' of color rather than spots in the majority of cases. The reason for the weaker spikes is the P. godefroyae influence, if it has a strong spike that does hold the flowers it has P.niveum in the parentage.
    The Paph on the left in your first photo 'could' be a P. Greyi with P.godefroyae alba or leucochilum as one parent.
     
  8. Apr 27, 2009 #8
    HI Roy,

    thanks a lot for the clarification.

    So, we could say that on the first picture:

    • Plant on the left = Paph. x ang thong (or Paph. Greyi) with the red underside ofthe leave coming from the niveum parent (I have read in another thread this feature does not occur in Paph. godefroyae, is it right?)
    • Plant on the right = Paph. niveum

    On the second and third pictures (same plant) = Paph. Greyi (differences, to plant on first pic, as expected from hybrids.)

    right?
     
  9. Apr 27, 2009 #9

    Roy

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    I think that sums it up as close as we will get. There will always be a discussion and difference which is only to be expected. As for P. godefroyae not having red under the leaf, I'm not sure if that is correct.
     
  10. Apr 27, 2009 #10
    Gorgeous all!!!
     
  11. Apr 27, 2009 #11

    PaphMadMan

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    If the 2 flowers in the first picture were from the same vendor and labeled the same there is no basis to assume they are not the same species or hybrid. They are similar enough to easily be seedlings from the same pod. The differences between them are within the variability you could expect to see from selective breeding, whether the background is species, natural hybrid or artifical hybrid. I agree with Ernie that these are too spotty to fit an identification as niveum. Perhaps "ang thong", whatever it may be, is correct.
     
  12. Apr 27, 2009 #12

    Ernie

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    I think Roy misread my original post. I believe they are both NON-niveums.

    We have a handful of niveums in bloom right now, and they have much paler yellow eyes on the staminode, the stami is VERY wide (as someone else mentioned- cool, never noticed that before), and they are very sparsely speckled (no big spots or lines). See pics here-

    http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10779&highlight=niveum

    http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9648&highlight=niveum

    http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8864&highlight=niveum

    http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9797&highlight=niveum

    -Ernie
     
  13. Apr 27, 2009 #13

    Roy

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    Ernie, I did miss read your post, sorry. Having had a bit of a search, the two Paphs in question could be P. Psyche.
     
  14. Apr 27, 2009 #14
    hhhhmmm... comparing all these pics with my plants... Ernie's paphs... shape quite variable, staminode quite similar to my plant (left one - the yellow on the staminode of my plant is also not so strong as in the picture), however the dotts are indeed very different...

    as per teh comment before, the plants were not tagged at all, there was just a large table with about 100 plants (and they had already sold at least 50 more - for what I could see). There were some labels set aside indicating Paph. niveums var ang thong and Paph niveum, however it was not possible to said with 100% certainty which was each (I also think people checking the plants were also moving them around and mixing it up more) I just tried to get two different ones and teh guy said they were both ang thong, and you know the rest of the story... so, in other words, it cannot be said that these two plants are from the same pod!

    as per Paph. Psyche... hhhmm... Roy, why do you say they could be this cross? The pictures I have found are quite different too... I think Mystic Isle or Muriel Constance are more similar to them than Psyche... or?
     
  15. Apr 28, 2009 #15

    Ernie

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    The ones I linked were just others previously posted on the forum. Photo credits go to the original post author. I think one is a sib of ours; the others... who knows, but they're niveums to compare. NOID Brachy hybrids are super hard to spec out. Those of us that got mixed budded specials from Nick T can attest to that. Good luck!

    -Ernie
     
  16. May 4, 2009 #16
    Ok, I decided to visit the nursery from where these two plants came from. I showed them the photos, discussed with them the characteristics of the leave and spent some time seeing the different plants they have. They insisted the two guys were Paphiopedilum Mystic Isle (left - niveum x Greyi) & Paphiopedilum Muriel Constance (right - bellatulum x Greyi). They had very similar plants in each group, but some of them could belong to any group...

    so... they get and keep these labels (even though, deep in my soul, I am not sure they are 100% correct)
     

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