P. spicerianum

Slippertalk Orchid Forum

Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:

Guldal

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2017
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
438
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
Unfortunately I didn't have time to take a photo before the flower was almost done (so please disregard the little brown spot on the dorsal - it wasn't there, when the flower was at its apex):
20200113_143416.jpg 20200113_143703.jpgNS: 7 cm; DS: 6 cm.

Evening light:
20200113_143404.jpg
Plant in toto:
20200113_143502.jpg
 

DrLeslieEe

Collector of new, rare and albino paph species
ST Supporter
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
844
Location
TORONTO CANADA
As beautiful as mine! I think these are parents of the future. What do you think? Mine and yours?
 

Guldal

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2017
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
438
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
I think they are Brunos................................only DNA testing will sort these out.
That's a thought...

Albeit, I would have thought, that Hans Christiansen of Orchidgartneriet in Fredensborg with his 50+ years experience as highly awarded nursery owner and many years of orchid judging should have spotted this - or at least ought to have had the suspicion? Not to speak of the judges of the German orchid Society (DOG), who in international orchid exhibitions awarded each of his parental plants with a Bronze Medal?
Buy you are probably right, OZ, in the end only DNA-analysis might provide the final answer....
 

BrucherT

ST Supporter
ST Supporter
Joined
Nov 16, 2017
Messages
584
Reaction score
131
Location
Chicago
I don’t want to denigrate or upset anyone and there is room for all opinion and aesthetic preference but here’s mine: P. spicerianum has a folded turret dorsal. That characteristic substantially acounts for its grace and exotic charm, Losing that characteristic, whether through hybridization or line breeding, seems unfortunate. The relentless drive to make all these flowers into flat versions of themselves and/or one another makes no sense to me.
 

DrLeslieEe

Collector of new, rare and albino paph species
ST Supporter
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
844
Location
TORONTO CANADA
I don’t want to denigrate or upset anyone and there is room for all opinion and aesthetic preference but here’s mine: P. spicerianum has a folded turret dorsal. That characteristic substantially acounts for its grace and exotic charm, Losing that characteristic, whether through hybridization or line breeding, seems unfortunate. The relentless drive to make all these flowers into flat versions of themselves and/or one another makes no sense to me.
I can understand your point. I also love the type species with their curves and daintiness. I also am on the side of ‘improving’ form and color of species. Now how much is considered improved is a matter of personal taste. Look at the adoration that we shower the flowers that are bigger, flatter and more colourful. We as growers and definitely the judges shape the way flowers are being turned and bred into. Case in point are the wardiis. The natural forms had cupped narrow dorsal sepals, wispy thin petals and muted colors. The selected ones now are bred to have flat dorsal sepals, wide black petals and darker colors. Which one would you choose?
 
Last edited:

DrLeslieEe

Collector of new, rare and albino paph species
ST Supporter
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
844
Location
TORONTO CANADA
In the case of spicerianums, there was a big fiasco in US breeding where a hybrid Bruno was introduced into the line breeding by mistake. The progeny was bred as if they were the true species in Asia and Europe. And the results were huge 4N type spicerianum lookalikes. However, Bruno lineage is easier to tell from true spicerianum by its plant growth pattern, staminode and sibling comparison (sibs will not flower consistently like true species, meaning some will look like a complex).

And like Jens mentioned, the reputable growers will know this and will delegate accordingly. If mine was judged as a Bruno, it will most likely get an award before it gets one as a spicerianum. That is a true tragedy then. What happened with Hercules will set a precedence that ALL big and flat spicerianums are hybrids. And this is simply not true. This means that no spicerianums with flat dorsal will ever be recognized by the award system because of that fiasco. Truly sad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Elf

BrucherT

ST Supporter
ST Supporter
Joined
Nov 16, 2017
Messages
584
Reaction score
131
Location
Chicago
In the case of spicerianums, there was a big fiasco in US breeding where a hybrid Bruno was introduced into the line breeding by mistake. The progeny was bred as if they were the true species in Asia and Europe. And the results were huge 4N type spicerianum lookalikes. However, Bruno lineage is easier to tell from true spicerianum by its plant growth pattern, staminode and sibling comparison (sibs will not flower consistently like true species, meaning some will look like a complex).

And like Jens mentioned, the reputable growers will know this and will delegate accordingly. If mine was judged as a Bruno, it will most likely get an award before it gets one as a spicerianum. That is a true tragedy then. What happened with Hercules will set a precedence that ALL big and flat spicerianums are hybrids. And this is simply not true. This means that no spicerianums with flat dorsal will ever be recognized by the award system because of that fiasco. Truly sad.
I’m impressed by the flat wide flowers for their sake but I wouldn’t grow them or contribute to them. My aesthetic preference is to see and steward what I could stumble upon in the jungle. The plant as evolved over countless millennia is perfect to me and what I want to see and grow. These big wide waxy spicerianums look like bulldog paphs to me, like spicerianums on steroids. Again, room for all and I do appreciate them for what they are in themselves but I run from them as my idea of spicerianum. Why do breeders not focus on amplifying natural features? That classic turret dorsal wouldn’t look any less lovely if it doubled in size along with the rest of the flower, nor the petals less impressive with their waviness increased rather than flattened. To me, hybridizing and line breeding often seems to go exactly the wrong way from where it should. But then, I’m not a breeder. I’m someone who’s after classic jungle plants with a provenance that respects CITES (which I know is another fraught issue and I’m not blind to its tragic shortcomings but having read Orchid Fever and the kovachii debacle I just don’t want that trouble).
 

Guldal

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2017
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
438
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
I’m impressed by the flat wide flowers for their sake but I wouldn’t grow them or contribute to them. My aesthetic preference is to see and steward what I could stumble upon in the jungle. The plant as evolved over countless millennia is perfect to me and what I want to see and grow. These big wide waxy spicerianums look like bulldog paphs to me, like spicerianums on steroids. Again, room for all and I do appreciate them for what they are in themselves but I run from them as my idea of spicerianum. Why do breeders not focus on amplifying natural features? That classic turret dorsal wouldn’t look any less lovely if it doubled in size along with the rest of the flower, nor the petals less impressive with their waviness increased rather than flattened. To me, hybridizing and line breeding often seems to go exactly the wrong way from where it should. But then, I’m not a breeder. I’m someone who’s after classic jungle plants with a provenance that respects CITES (which I know is another fraught issue and I’m not blind to its tragic shortcomings but having read Orchid Fever and the kovachii debacle I just don’t want that trouble).
I can follow you a long way along that line, Brucher. When it comes to Roths, I've always wondered, why bigger, rounder, darker, more horizontal petals almost seems to have developed into the one and only aesthetic norm - rather than being seen for what it is: a fad/trend in breeding and judging - and of course also carrying a load of aesthetic value in itself. I think,though, one limits oneself and cuts oneself off from a lot of pleasure and enjoyment, if one can't also appreciate other kinds of Roths!

I feel the same about spicerianum: I love my own, more linebred plant and flower - and Leslie's Hercules! But I'm likewise fond of the more typical/original forms of this species - with the 'Schwung' of their folded, turret dorsal and their more chaste, and in comparison almost innoncent colours. To see a well grown plant of this kind with an abundant flowering is, indeed, a great joy. (Btw. if you take a closer look at the in-toto-photo, you will see, that not all 'Schwung' have gone out of the dorsal of my flowers - especially, if you focus on the flower, photoed more sideway)

I'm happy, that I can enjoy both - and thus adhere to the dictum of the great, spiritual guide, M. West: "Too much of a good thing can be....wonderfull!" :D
 
Last edited:

Happypaphy7

Paphlover
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
6,298
Reaction score
273
Location
New York City
I like the flower, but I prefer spicerianum that looks like what it should look like. I don't see the point of making everything round and full.
The dorsal is among the most distinct features of the species spicerianum and I think it is perfect and beautiful as they come.

It is unfortunate that Bruno has been passed around carelessly.
Don't get me wrong. As I said, I like this. I just wish breeders and vendors were more careful and each varieties were correctly labelled to avoid confusions.
 
Last edited:

Happypaphy7

Paphlover
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
6,298
Reaction score
273
Location
New York City
DrleslieEe- I recommend you have a good look at the staminode on Bruno. It looks exactly the same as the species. The only obvious difference between Bruno and the species is the dorsal shape. You cross this once again onto the species and the result will be indistinguishable to the species.
 

Happypaphy7

Paphlover
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
6,298
Reaction score
273
Location
New York City
Also, when species and hybrids that have been backcrossed to the species in such a way that the flower looks so much a like, professionals cannot tell them apart. Just look at some of the awarded plants that were presented with mislabeled tag and no one could tell and still got awarded.
I rather not get into this as such an issue were heavily discussed in the past on here.
This is why hybrids that look so much like the species parent should not be made. Losing a tag and/or being passed on as species is so easy.
 

DrLeslieEe

Collector of new, rare and albino paph species
ST Supporter
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
844
Location
TORONTO CANADA
To say that you can tell a spicerianum from a Bruno by the flatness of the dorsal is not true unfortunately. There are spicerianums that open with flat dorsals and if judged then might be passed or get a high award depending on who’s judging. I submit the pics of Hercules after 3 weeks with a turret style dorsal that is ‘acceptably wider’ than the species. If it was shown then, what would be the verdict?

CF847005-D528-4078-89FD-CBC4A402A0C7.jpeg C818D913-40CE-42E2-BB89-B0ED3CDA19A4.jpeg A24E4B33-FF2C-4D09-A26E-960E15EC8E17.jpeg 6A1E03F0-6F1D-41B4-9B7A-8252B018BA95.jpeg ADAAA7DE-2B89-4CFE-BD81-E2516E0F8D84.jpeg 3D15DB06-1CEB-4756-9F54-2C75F9E7328C.jpeg

In regards to similarity to the staminodes of both the species and Bruno, it is true. However the Bruno staminode is a little different in shape when one knows what to look for sometimes. Also, the other parts and characteristics would be taken into account to differentiate such as leaves (Bruno has wider leaves). Of course the more times the species is bred into this progeny of Bruno, the more it looks like the type species. The final verdict is still open to interpretation by whoever is judging at that moment. And many mistakes are made in such cases, as mentioned in the post where flowers were mistakenly awarded. To err is human.
 

Latest posts

Top