P. agusii and P. venustum fma. measuresianum (not quite) - first time bloomers

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GuRu

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Ozpaph

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That venustum is unusual. Not seen albo-viride with spots before. The downswept petals are also unusual.
Any information about the plants origin?
 

Guldal

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It’s normal for this dark wart spots in the measuresianums. Some more than others.
Which then disqualify them as measuresianum, as this epithet is only valid for the true albino form of venustum (i.e. those with no traces of anthocyanin - red pigmentation).

OMG. Leslie, haven't we recently been here? (Or maybe it was in a discussion of fairrieanum fma. bohlmannianum?)
No matter what, I fear, we kind of start to sound like the two fusty old men in The Muppet Show (Waldorf and Statler), going through the same routines over and over again: Statler and Waldorf - Wikipedia 😁😁😁
 

DrLeslieEe

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Which then disqualify them as measuresianum, as this epithet is only valid for the true albino form of venustum (i.e. those with no traces of anthocyanin - red pigmentation).

OMG. Leslie, haven't we recently been here? (Or maybe it was in a discussion of fairrieanum fma. bohlmannianum?)
No matter what, I fear, we kind of start to sound like the two fusty old men in The Muppet Show (Waldorf and Statler), going through the same routines over and over again: Statler and Waldorf - Wikipedia 😁😁😁
Yes been there, done that.

But for the sake of explanation and judging many of these (plus my intensive research and paper on the varieties of venustums), let’s elucidate further:

The initial discovery circa 1890’s of the ‘albino’ forms had these tiny spots in the base of the petals (2-3) and further line breeding produced ones with no spots and up to 10 spots (average 3-5 spots).

These spots were on the hairs or warts of the flowers, and were not part of the red anthocyanins on petal cells of the normal flower inheritance. This meant that they bred true as ‘albinos’ in yellow or alboviride progeny.

As a result, these alboviride forms with dark spots were considered by breeders and some taxonomists as the measuresianum forms.

If you want to get technical, the leaves of these albinoviride (with spots) do not have anthocyanins nor do these types produce colored type progeny when selfed.

In addition, even the occasional rarely found measuresianum flowers with no spots, when selfed, will produce green flowers with these spots in progeny.

Although some taxonomists and diehard fans champion the ‘albino’ term for var measuresianum, it really should be considered ‘alboviride’ as it’s a green flower and not white.

And finally… In almost every picture (but one) of books depicting this form, from Braeme to Grus, as well as awards from around the world, these spots were very much present.
 
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shaw

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According to DR Braem, Paph agusii is a mere colour version of Paph Javanica in his latest Paphiopedilum book. with a small print. This Paph was found in central Java island, on a slope of a mountain. It was published by Dr. William C in an online publication or German publication.
It was also briefly discussed in Orchid Digest by Olaf, William, and Koopzit where they also discuss a few other recent discoveries on that year for Paph.
 

Guldal

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Yes been there, done that.

But for the sake of explanation and judging many of these (plus my intensive research and paper on the varieties of venustums), let’s elucidate further:

The initial discovery circa 1890’s of the ‘albino’ forms had these tiny spots in the base of the petals (2-3) and further line breeding produced ones with no spots and up to 10 spots (average 3-5 spots).

These spots were on the hairs or warts of the flowers, and were not part of the red anthocyanins on petal cells of the normal flower inheritance. This meant that they bred true as ‘albinos’ in yellow or alboviride progeny.

As a result, these alboviride forms with dark spots were considered by breeders and some taxonomists as the measuresianum forms.

If you want to get technical, the leaves of these albinoviride (with spots) do not have anthocyanins nor do these types produce colored type progeny when selfed.

In addition, even the occasional rarely found measuresianum flowers with no spots, when selfed, will produce green flowers with these spots in progeny.

Although some taxonomists and diehard fans champion the ‘albino’ term for var measuresianum, it really should be considered ‘alboviride’ as it’s a green flower and not white.

And finally… In almost every picture (but one) of books depicting this form, from Braeme to Grus, as well as awards from around the world, these spots were very much present.
I have now finally had some time to do a bit of homework - and, Leslie, I wouldn't in your shoes take recourse to invoke Braem's authority in this matter. Braem clearly and unequivocally asserts in the 2nd Edition of his comprehensive "The Genus Paphiopedilum", that " Plants offed as albinos of P. venustum sometimes show, although faintly, the remnants of reddish or brownish pigmentation. However, only those clones lacking any red or brown should be accepted as albinos" (p. 266, 2016). I can't distinguish any red or brown, however faint, in the photo in his book of this colour form (p. 389, ibid.).
Cribb in the 2nd edition of his monograph on "The Genus Paphiopedilum" is fully in accord with Braem's point of view: "... [A]lbino plants, referable to var. measuresianum, lacking any maroon or purple colour in the leaves and flowers are occasionally seen in collections ..... It is perhaps best treated as a form" (p. 392, 1998). Sadly, Cribb provides no photo of this colour form, but refers magnanimously to Braem (1988) for providing "[e]xcellent photo-graphs [sic] of this" (ibid.).
Gruß in his lavishly illustrated book on "The Genus Paphiopedilum. Albino Forms" shows photos of as well flowers without as with anthocyanin specks - but what the latters pertain, he clearly sees them as an abberation of the albino colour form, fma. measuresianum, as he explicitely makes the following qualifying statement in the photo caption: "shown as forma. alba [sic] but with black spots" (p. 181, 2008). A view that is fully in accordance with Gruß' overall concept of albinism in Paphiopedilums, which he presents in the introduction to the book (p. 8, ibid.).

I, too, believed that measurianum had no spotting but thats not clear from the original description.
Stephen might be right in assuming, that the original description was imprecise or lacking, but Leslie clearly errs, when he states:
The initial discovery circa 1890’s of the ‘albino’ forms had these tiny spots in the base of the petals (2-3) and further line breeding produced ones with no spots and up to 10 spots (average 3-5 spots).
Braem quotes an anonymous, contemporaneous source on the November 28th, 1893, meeting of the Royal Horticultural Society, where Measures exhibited the colour form for the first time: "an extraordinary and beautiful form with white and green flowers, without any of the brown and red seen in the type" (p. 266, 2016).

I hereby rest my case. And henceforth I will discount my plant from belonging to the realm of that treasured botanical colour form, 'fma. measuresianum' - resigning myself to the use of the horticultural epithet 'fma. alboviride (Hort.)'.

Most Sincerely,
Yours Waldorf
 
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GuRu

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...................Gruß in his lavishly illustrated book on "The Genus Paphiopedilum. Albino Forms" shows photos of as well flowers without as with anthocyanin specks - but what the latters pertain, he clearly sees them as an abberation of the albino colour form, fma. measuresianum, as he explicitely makes the following qualifying statement in the photo caption: "shown as forma. alba [sic] but with black spots" (p. 181, 2008). A view that is fully in accordance with Gruß' overall concept of albinism in Paphiopedilums, which he presents in the introduction to the book (p. 8, ibid.)..................

.......I hereby rest my case. And henceforth I will discount my plant from belonging to the realm of that treasured botanical colour form, 'fma. measuresianum' - resigning myself to the use of the horticultural epithet 'fma. alboviride (Hort.)'.......
I can only second Jens' standpoint and in addition here is an excerpt of the preface of Olaf Gruss' book 'GENUS PAPHIOPEDILUM ALBINO FORMS'.
I quote :
"........It is important to note the distiction between the alba [in the case of ladyslippers, album] forms and albinos. Alba forms are devoid of any colored pigmentation, and are pure white. A plant whose flowers are devoid of any red pigmentation is traditionally termed an albino; these flowers can be green, yellow or white, or a combination of all three. This is in contrast to the botanical definition of the term by Americo DOCHA; in strictly terms, an albino in plants is completely lacking green chlorophyll pigment. Generally speaking, they have paler leaves and are more difficult to cultivate than the typical color form of the species. The confusion derives from the fact that the variant album historiclly has been used for plants whose flowers are green -yellow, as for example , Paphiopedilum haynaldianum forma album. .......

To say it frankly in my own words, green-white flowers with rests of a red pigmantation (red or brown warts or spots) can't be albinos, as well as Paph. godefroyae with few spots on the pouch can't be var. leucochilum.
 

DrLeslieEe

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All I can say is that in the theoretical world of albino description, the ideal is absence of any anthocyanin pigmentation. In this respect the taxonomists are right for this definition.

But in the practical world of albino breeding of venustums, those basal petal spots/warts/hairs do not affect albino looking offsprings. These spots are independent of petal color, located on a separate gene loci.

For more detailed explanation, please refer to my venustum article section on albino gene breeding in the AOS Orchids magazine (June 2022, pp. 447-449).

In case people don't have the AOS membership, I will attach a draft PDF copy here for your review (album breeding from pp.26-30):
 

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GuRu

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.......The initial discovery circa 1890’s of the ‘albino’ forms had these tiny spots in the base of the petals (2-3) and further line breeding produced ones with no spots and up to 10 spots (average 3-5 spots).
These spots were on the hairs or warts of the flowers, and were not part of the red anthocyanins on petal cells of the normal flower inheritance. This meant that they bred true as ‘albinos’ in yellow or alboviride progeny.​
Leslie, I dont know which was first ....albino flowers with these spots or such without these spots. I even don't know whether these spots inherit themselves or not. But in my eyes only flowers without these spots can be named as Paph. venustum var. measuresianum.
Even you wrote in your linked article :
" var measuresianum (Amer. Gard. 865:1900): U.C. Pradhan (1975) describes it as “an albino variety distinguished from the type by absence of purplish color on petals ...an interesting color anomaly." ............... Some cultivars have remnants of the reddish or brownish pigmentation on the warts or petal bases. These are not considered pure albinos by definition, but they breed like albinos. .....

........ As a result, these alboviride forms with dark spots were considered by breeders and some taxonomists as the measuresianum forms.
Dr. G. Braem writes in his book 'PAPHIOPEDILUM' A monograph of all tropical and subtropical Asiatic-slipper-orchids (1988) [p.141] referring to Paph. venustum var. measuresianum :
"....In this mutant the synthesis of the reddish pigments are blocked genetically. The flower, therefore, echibits only white, yellow and green."
And in a footnote he complements.
"1) The orchid-enthusiasts should be very careful when buying a plant of an albino form. The plants offered are no always tru albinos and sometimes show , although faintly, the remnants of reddish or brown pigmentation.
Often, for whatever reasons, one takes liberties with the criterias for an albino form.
And finally… In almost every picture (but one) of books depicting this form, from Braeme to Grus, as well as awards from around the world, these spots were very much present.​
In the above named book of Dr. Braem only flowers without spots are shown. But you are right O.Gruss shows in his book 'GENUS PAPHIOPEDILUM ALBINO FORMS' also some flowers with dark spots, but in the underline of the photos he writes ..... 'Shown as forma alba but with black spots'.
 

DrLeslieEe

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Again, let me reiterate that we are talking semantics of the definitions of albino, which I agree with everyone heretoforth.

I am merely saying despite the presence of these dark minute hairs and spots, these venustum measuresianums breed like albinos. They do not carry the functional color gene of the type form that will impart red color to the petals, sepals or pouch. Isn't that the whole point of yellow/albino breeding lol.

And besides that, after all this, the pure non-spotted measuresianum forms, when selfed, will often produce alboviride progeny with these minute spots.

So by essence, the measuresianum forms are truly the alboviride forms, whose definitions might need to be reviewed again by the taxonomists.
 
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