Orchid Police?

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You better not grow
You better not buy
You better watch out
I'm tellin' you why..
CITES Police are coming
to town!
To the tune of "Santa Claus is coming to town."
 
The case that NYEric is talking about is tied in to the infamous Cycad bust that involved one of the big Colombian growers...forget the name in an Alzheimer's moment......I thing the burglar was also involved in the cycad case...it was written up in the NY Times Magazine a few years ago. Eric

I like cycads a lot, and actually collected some... The problem is very different.

For the South American dealer that went into a lot of problems, it was Portilla from Ecuagenera. Actually, quite a few of the big players from EcuadorPeru are dealing in anything they can get from the wild. They fit well the "business" concept. They do not care about conservation or anything else, just make money.

My feelings about cycads are very different than from orchids. A Paph sanderianum is blooming size in the wild in a couple of years. If removed, a seedlings can be "identical" in a few years in the forest. A cycad has 30% value because of the species, and 70%value because of the age. Most of the really expensive cycads are 100+ years old. So their removal cannot be replaced as quickly as a paph in the forest.

The prices are however irrealistic, like for the orchids, in the newspaper and cout cases. Paph rothschildianum was quoted at 2000US$ a plant in front of a London court very recently, and cycads quoted for some thousands US$. Except a few very rare beautiful and old specimen, it is not the "trade price".

Microcycas calocoma can be purchased from Italy, big, for EUR 200...
 
The case that NYEric is talking about is tied in to the infamous Cycad bust that involved one of the big Colombian growers...forget the name in an Alzheimer's moment......I thing the burglar was also involved in the cycad case...it was written up in the NY Times Magazine a few years ago. Eric
Actually what I was refering to was something personally told to me by an orchid species vendor from California. Either way, lack of real knowledge and sensationalism are affecting U.S. vendors and hobbiests.
 
At the end of each week, someone post the Cliff's Notes version of Sanderianum's posts for me. :)

-Steve Jobs (Ernie)
 
Actually what I was refering to was something personally told to me by an orchid species vendor from California. Either way, lack of real knowledge and sensationalism are affecting U.S. vendors and hobbiests.

I think you are talking about the same case. It was a few years back. No charges were laid against Portilla, just a few tense hours in jail. I think his visa was suspended for a while too. There were multiple people targeted in this sting operation, not just ecuagenera. I believe the case as a whole is ongoing to this day.

Thats about all I know of that subject.

Kyle
 
...
In many of the highly publicized instances I can think of right now, whether Kovach, Azadehdel, Boscha Popow, regardless of the fact they had really illegal plants or not, those cases appeared only because they have been either careless or could be competitor later. Some people got a supply ( from Boscha Popow as an example, at a time the paphs were Appendix II, not I) of Chinese paphiopedilum, several hundreds plants of each species, and thereafter contacted the authorities to "blank" their stocks by giving their supplier. That was a matter of jealousy, unwillingness to have a competitor ( some small player take a stock like that and want to destroy their supplier, first knowing that their supplier will always have stock and sell to everyone, and second to destroy the competitors and have a monopoly), and they will push individuals officers. Of course, what they inform might be illegal (like the people who informed the Customs aboutSian Lim in England as well), BUT the main fact is that those informants first have a financial reward, second are not disturbed when selling their stock, third have a temporary monopoly, fourth increase the value of their investment. That's it and that's all.

The most dangerous people are few people who blatantly lie about the rarity of paphs. NO! Paphs are/were not rare in the wild. Paphiopedilum armeniacum is "on the verge of extinction" for the last 20 years according to some people. So where are those thousands of wild plants coming each year from ???

Paph. rothschildianum is extremely abundant in the wild, it is easy to find a collector to take 2000 plants in a week or so. I visited such places in Sabah, with few hundreds CLUMPS of roths, freshly collected. And so on for most species. Paph zieckianum is very common in the Arfak Mountains, hundreds of thousands of plants. Wentworthianum is common in Guadalcanal. I got a picture from a guy who advertised on the orchidmall for that species, he had some thousands plants freshly collected.

The real truth is that some people made alarming reports, that led to 2 disastrous consequences:

- Nearly no one trust that paphs are rare in the wild anymore.
- The prices are higher, so there is more demand
- There is no way to enforce CITES at present time correctly
- Huge stock are collected, for pot plant, and because some crazy people think that, being in demand, there is a lot of customers.

Result: sooner or later some species will really disappeared. Some start to, and not the ones we are thinking of. Paph. coccineum, Paph.hookerae, Paph. celebense are nearly extinct now. But not at all sanderianum, roth, micranthum, or armeniacum that are still plentiful.
...
People should not dream. Every single paph breeder in the world has "illegal" plants or plants of doubtful source. Some wil breed them, some will simply sell them. But the authorities know perfectly well that there are illegal plants around. They do not bother at all if those facts are not "public", and if those plants are well cared for, and used for breeding. Of course, there could be a couple individuals officers that are completely crazy, and potentially very dangerous, but they are very, very rare...
...
One last thing, about the files, every single letter received by the customs has to be stamped, stored, and the facts in it recorded. Every informant declaration has to be recorded as well. Therefore some people have "huge files" at the customs of their country, that's completely true. No one can believe how many letters from informants per day the customs can receive. Now, whether they investigate or just store it because they are forced to store the information is another matter.

As a general basis, I would say that if the hobbyists do not do things that are too obvious, and NO, REALLY NO business ( selling a couple divisions or otherwise is perfectly fine, but not 20 plants of helenae as an example), the risks are virtually nonexistent. Think about all those illegal plants sold on ebay.com USA, how many buyers got problems ? I think none...

I love to read your posts, actually I should say, I am looking for them everytime I am on the forum.
I met Mr. Boscha at the show in New York, he is quite a cheerful, witty, friendly & down to earth person from what I can tell.
Hate to hear that something happened to him. I was not awared that it was something publicized. I am only heard about the Kovach & Norris cases. And I felt so bad for both of them.
Just the thirst to have a species named after yourself, and you got slapped left & right. Where as hundred of kovachii plants were exported away by others.
The way I see it, All the species start out as collected, all the hybrids we have right now can trace back of ancestry from the jungles. Period.
True conservation,
- is refuse to buy into the hype of the likes of Humvees that waste energy resources,
-is not to eat so much meat that acres of rain forest are downed to make way for ranches.
- I even think that all of those disappeared mountains from mining may affect earth weather pattern (or at least the local).
These things combined may increase the temperature to a point that decimate the habitats for orchids & everything else more than any wild harvesting action .
And about the informants, the vietnamese has a fable with a moral quote in the end. every kids in Vietnam heard this growing up.
"There was a man who save a few animals & a person from drowning. Each animal repay the kind deed with gratitude, only the fellow human betrays, lies, and informs to put the guy in prison. Finally the animals save the prisoner."
That is a very short sighted way to do business. Once peoples know the person's reputation of selling/betray suppliers for a little bit of profit, nobody else would want to have anything to do with him.
So no more future business.
 
True conservation,
- is refuse to buy into the hype of the likes of Humvees that waste energy resources,
-is not to eat so much meat that acres of rain forest are downed to make way for ranches.
- I even think that all of those disappeared mountains from mining may affect earth weather pattern (or at least the local).
These things combined may increase the temperature to a point that decimate the habitats for orchids & everything else more than any wild harvesting action .
I don't know about that but it's certainly going to be a factor for all type of life on this planet!
Year 3010, Cockroach decendent couple: "Look at the prehistoric human bones honey, let's get a set to mount on the living room wall!"!!!:(
 
I don't know about that but it's certainly going to be a factor for all type of life on this planet!
Year 3010, Cockroach decendent couple: "Look at the prehistoric human bones honey, let's get a set to mount on the living room wall!"!!!:(

I doubt if it will be legal for cockroaches to dig up the bones of their primitive ancestors in 3010.
 
I love to read your posts, actually I should say, I am looking for them everytime I am on the forum.

I met Mr. Boscha at the show in New York, he is quite a cheerful, witty, friendly & down to earth person from what I can tell.
Hate to hear that something happened to him.

That was long time ago, as Mr. Boscha was the best supplier at that time of many paphiopedilum ( in the 80's, so pre-CITES App I !). Many people started to be jealous, and they tried to destroy him actually.

A part of the story that is untold, in Germany at that time everyone was importing wild plants. I think there were not that many plants from seed, if any. The problem is that Mr. Boscha was willing to travel to find the sources worldwide, whereas most of the other growers would stick their fat a$$ on their chairs, only call the suppliers, and wait him to come back to buy.

If you do not travel, there is NO WAY you can get original quality plants. I have seen shipments from Ecuagenera, from Thailand... where the customer did not travel. Well in Thailand, the paph leucochilum blooming size ranged from hybrids to collected rough plants with 2 leaves, to 5 growth plants, all mixed.

The "chinese" paphiopedilum and paph sanderianum were out of reach for someone who does not travel at that time. It should be noticed too that sanderianum was the "focus" why Mr. Boscha at that time started to have huge problems, but all the growers imported massive quantities of stonei, and I cannot figure out the difference between stonei and sand in terms of "legality".

So his competitors join-ventured and tried to destroy him. Fortunately, he recovered.

About the people that inform to the customs about him and Mr. Azadehdel, well, they are quite famous figures of the orchid world, and still doing good sales...

The way I see it, All the species start out as collected, all the hybrids we have right now can trace back of ancestry from the jungles. Period.

I would say that the hybrid market consumes as much if not more wild plants than the species market actually... To make hybrids of hangianum with a pedigree and selected parents, people have to bloom hundreds of them. To sell blooming size hangiaum, they can buy 100 plants, grow them 6 months and sell them...

- I even think that all of those disappeared mountains from mining may affect earth weather pattern (or at least the local).

Some mountains have been chopped off in Sarawak, at their base they built a huge road, deemed to be Kuching-Kota Kinabalu. The mountains "drains" faster as a result, and many sanderianum died as a consequence... not to mention most of the plants on those mountains.

That is a very short sighted way to do business. Once peoples know the person's reputation of selling/betray suppliers for a little bit of profit, nobody else would want to have anything to do with him.

That would be the logic, but I know that in all instances, even if those informants people are known, they still do business, and good one at that. Several reasons

- for the conservationist that scream whenever they see a wild collected dandelion they are "heroes"
- people forget when it comes to "business". I know several cases where the informant and the jailed people still do business afterwards. There are not that many players in the orchid world, and sellers have to sell, buyers to buy...
- hobbyists that search for some peculiar plants will still buy from those informant sources.
 
That would be the logic, but I know that in all instances, even if those informants people are known, they still do business, and good one at that. Several reasons

- for the conservationist that scream whenever they see a wild collected dandelion they are "heroes"
- people forget when it comes to "business". I know several cases where the informant and the jailed people still do business afterwards. There are not that many players in the orchid world, and sellers have to sell, buyers to buy...
- hobbyists that search for some peculiar plants will still buy from those informant sources.

It is strange indeed, the business world of orchid.
Still, betraying is the hardest thing to forgive
 
NY Eric....I was with you when we both heard the story....I think I mentioned the cycad incident to him, and I think he confirmed that the same person, or people associated with him, were involved...Eric....then again, who knows...another alzheimers moment?
 
Interesting debate in this thread --
Sanderianum you seems to be very well informed,
but what is your personal opinion on buying wild collected plants (that is when its evident that the plants are wild collected)
 
Interesting debate in this thread --
Sanderianum you seems to be very well informed,
but what is your personal opinion on buying wild collected plants (that is when its evident that the plants are wild collected)

I do not know myself sometimes... It depends on the species. Quite a few are used as pot-plant or decorative/ornamentals in their country of origin. My thread on armeniacum is a very, very good example. So a hobbyist buying a wild collected plant from that, even through a reseller, is not going to harm the wild plants that much, because the collection does not occurs for hobby market, but for pot-plant market. Hobbyists buying such plants most likely save them from the pot-plant trade, where the plants perish by the dozens of thousands.

If you take sanderianum, and the others, then it is very different. The plants are collected in huge numbers, and most nurseries do not know how to care about them. For 1 plant of thoses species sold to hobbyist, there has been 10 or 20 killed, minimum. Buying such plants however does not encourage the collection as well, most of the wild collected paphs from the "non pot plant type" ends up in large nurseries who make "selection" out of them, like in Taiwan.

In all instances, a hobbyist buying wild plants is a consumer of "rejected plants". He is not the main market. Most of the wild plants are dead, or used to make the so beautiful flasks, prized by the "conservationists" as "protecting the wild plants"... One very selected sanderianum "needs" many hundreds plants of sands collected.

Sometimes I have good laugh about that, because if you take 1 highly awarded sanderianum, that required let's say 500 plants to be collected ( that's a good estimate), this sand will make 2000 seedlings in flask, whose only 200 will reach blooming size ( and be praised as "artificially propagated). So 200 sands from seed require... 500 sands from the wild. There is something wrong somewhere...


Now, I think that whole scheme of wild collecting plants is completely wrong at present time.

If people who collect try to value their "product", make beautiful established plants, no diseases, they would no need to collect 10000 plants and destroy everything, I think maybe 100-500 selected in the wild in bloom would be, at most, more than enough for 1 or 2 years of market, perfectly grown... And the wild populations numbers thousands of plants, the pressure would not be important. it is working very well with tree ferns, some macrozamia, lepidozamia...
 
Xavier
-- you did not answer my question -- or if its your answer its an hypocritic one.
You're always talking about what the others do --

In terms of illegal plant imports from what I've heard your're big shot yourself right ?

I've heard that you now live somewhere in Asia and are collecting plants and selling them via outlets in Europe.

I know that you sold a batch of sanderianum's in Europe recently that was far from being legal.

How do you relate to that given the fact that you're sort "preaching" the contrary ?

No offense of course
 

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