Now, now, now.......

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Eric Muehlbauer

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Now, now, now......

OK....I have been considering my words for a very long time. For those of you who know me, I do not post serious comments casually. I think about them. Then think again. I post under my own name, on every forum I participate in. What I say remains on the net, for all to see, should they be so bored as to do a Google search under my name. I am very unhappy with the direction I have seen this board going in with regard to discussions by Peter Croezen. I am starting this new thread because the other was closed down before I could post. First off....why do people defend Peter? Perhaps because we have known him for so long. No, not personally. Peter is an online comrade and correspondant, as are all of you. Over the years, I have made many friends and aquaintences online...some, like Lien and NYEric, I have met...most of you I have not...but many of us go way, way, back. I first discovered the OLD back in 1995...I was astounded, that me, a mere hobbiest, was actually able to commune with names I had encountered since I first took an interest in orchids....Joe Arditti, Guido Braem....the list goes on. I discovered that these guys can be cranks as well...I am a mere schoolteacher now, but I came from a research, academic environment...one of the reasons I chose teaching was to get away from the competition, egos and backbiting of academia (not to mention a terminal lack of ambition, love of summer vacation, and an uncontrollable tendency to treat grad school and academia in the same way I treated college.....I had to do something to preserve my brain and liver cells...well, liver cells grow back.....I think parenthood had something to do with it also...children need money in order to grow and prosper....) Knowledgable people can be sphincters...but I appreciate their knowledge. My professors taught me well....one of my favorite college professors turned out to be pretty anti-semitic...and, yes, he knew I was Jewish....there are things he said to me I don't respect....and there are things I learned that I remember till this day, and his classes were well worth it....what he said to me in a bar doesn't compare to what he said in the field. The point remains, knowledge and personality are separate. I quickly discovered that my adored orchid personalities were...well, personalities. I found some made there personalities inextricably tied in with there knowledge...Peter has been there since the beginning. Do I agree with his style? No, not always. However, I have corresponded with him both publicly and privately, and we have always had a civil discourse. And that is what bugs me here. I love this list....while I cannot claim to have put any work into this list, that credit goes to Heather, John, Blake, and others, I did my part to try to contact people I knew and make them aware that a site existed, devoted to the Cypripedioidiae, in which we could exchange knowledge, exchange pleasantries, perhaps disagree, without fear of censorship...without a big brother telling us how to think or behave or contacting us with PM's telling us that we were not allowed to mention certain names or sites. And this site fulfilled its purpose. We talked, we laughed, we argued....and still could see our words in print for all to regard, disregard, laugh or cry over. But what has happened now? If I were new to this list, seeing some of the discussion over Peter's posts, I would seriously wonder if this was the place to join....Blake and John, you have every right to disagree with Peter....and yes, even as administrators, you have the right of free speech as the rest of us. But...you are labelled as admins, and you have to realize that this adds responsibility. Like it or not, your words have significance that no disclaimers can eliminate. They set a tone that other's do not have. Hell, I know that there are things I can say to my friends, even my students, even on this list, that I cannot say to my children. Why? The same words? Because my position as a parent carries responsibility...and those words have a significance that are not perceived by others. And you must be aware of this responsibility. I am on many other lists..this one is a walk in the park compared to some. I think the admins on my fishing group must bar someone every day, and for good reason....the admins on my reef group are regularly admonished by members for the tone of some of their comments to other members...and then there is the OGD...solely run by Kenneth Bruyninxx (I hope he isn't reading this to see the crime I comitted to the spelling of his name...)...who has the patience of a saint...(and I have communicated privately with him and know his exasperation with some of the characters he deals with)...he has barred a total of maybe 3 people (all online friends of mine....I only hang with the best.....) in all the years he has run that list. Now, seriously guys....look at the language we have read..."enemy"...."hate"....???????? I am 52 years old, and I must say that in my life I haven't truly felt hatred for anyone (barring some temporary feelings towards ex-girlfriends in college...). Enemy??? I have never had an enemy in my life....and I am talking about the real world, with real people...this is all words...electrons on a screen....and you get worked up over this????? I have never gotten angry at anyone online. (Even when I disagreed with Gilda over that snake, there was no personal anger....and I'm sure if we met we would get along fine.)I find it inconceivable. I respect Guido and Lance, even if I disagree with their style, and especially disagree with the non-orchid things they say and their combative attitude.... I respect Joe Arditti and Uri Baruk, even though they must be wincing at the thought of their names being in the same (run-on) sentence as Guido's. One of my favorite online friends is George Norris...aside from a love of fishing, we have probably nothing in common besides orchids....and I made it clear to him in the beginning that our politics were not to be discussed, as we would be wasting our time...and we got along...I have rambled on too long. I have put most of you asleep...and if I have PO'd Blake, John, and Heather, my apologies...that was not the intention. I am not intending this statement to turn into a long thread....as I said, I have been thinking about this for a long time (for those of you with the patience to read this, I'm sure toooooo long....) and felt I must say something to clear my conscience from just being a mere spectator...on my favorite message board. To all, a good night and a great holiday weekend....I'm going fishing..........Take care, Eric
 
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PHRAG

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You didn't put me to sleep Eric. I read the whole thing.

But I don't have the patience of a saint. There are certain things that tick me off, and right quick at that. Maybe this is something I should work on. Maybe not. This Irish temper has gotten me out of more fixes than it has gotten me in them. (Gotten, that ain't a word is it?)

If you will notice, I placed Administrator back under my name. I will never take it off again. I am proud of this place I helped to build. And I will see it continue to be a place where free speech is celebrated for all, and responsibly. That is the key. Free speech comes with responsibility.

As for Administrators being held to a higher standard, well, all I can say is welcome to the only message board where the Administrators are common folks just like you. I think it works just fine, and I don't want it changed. If you all would stop trying to put us up on a pedestal, we could stop climbing down. : )

BTW, we have only banned one person in our first year of being online. I think that speaks volumes about why this is a great place to be.
 

Heather

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Eric,

Thank you. That was a well thought out and well taken post. All of it.
We're all on the same page here. I agree, the strong language in that thread was when I said I was getting "weary" also.

The point remains, we're here together because we're interested in Slippers. Lovely plants that bloom and reward us. I hope we can return to that topic soon.

Y'all have worn me out. I'm going to bed.

BTW, I was uploading pics of Cyps for all of you earlier, but got, understandably, sidetracked. So now, you have to wait. :p
 

John M

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Eric, Very well put. Thank you.


Originally posted by Phrag in the "other" thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-NY
I personally feel that a public forum on slipper orchids should have their administrators portray more decorum than what I have seen in this thread.

This a a quote from the rules of this forum "1. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Name calling, rudeness, extreme profanity and posting of pornography are actions not welcome here."



I am sick to death of this. Where is it written that administrators have to act like Jesus Christ while members of the board can act like total assholes? If you want to be treated with respect and admiration, and be spoken to like a decent human being, then act like a decent human being when you come to this board.

You are all here without charge, never asked to contribute anything more than conversation. And yet, you act like spoiled houseguests, demanding that the owner of the house bend to your every whim and do it with a smile. Well, I don't live like that. If you want to ignore the bad behavior of certain members of this forum, that's fine. But don't sit there and rub it in the administrators faces when they decide they don't like the attitudes of a couple of orchid divas.

I am locking this thread. I will lock every thread about this subject matter until Glen Decker or H.P. Norton want to post about it. If you want to quote rules to me, look up the one about not starting drama on this forum.
Phrag; If you can't see / understand / or agree with Peter's point of view, that is certainly your right.....to have your own, differing oppinion. However, I believe a better approach would be to simply agree to disagree and then drop it; rather than to give yourself the privilege of the last word and then lock the thread and promise to "...lock every thread about this subject..."

It doesn't matter one whif wheather or not I agree with you and bwester, or if I agree with Dot and Peter. What you did is blatant censorship. After having your say and calling people names like "assholes" and "divas", do you really expect the rest of us to think only thoughts that you approve of and to talk only about subjects of which you approve?

You say:
And I will see it continue to be a place where free speech is celebrated for all, and responsibly. That is the key. Free speech comes with responsibility.
So, we can expect free speech on this forum as long as you determine that what we are saying is responsible? But first, you indulge in a bit of drama, ranting and getting some stuff off your chest. Then, you lock the thread to prevent others from replying and you promise to lock any other thread on the same subject.


While I agree that the thread in question was getting old, tired and even irritating, I still found myself "tuning in" to read the new posts. I was interested in seeing how this played out and who was right and who was wrong. Unfortunately, you got "sick to death of this" and you suddenly begin sounding wa-aaaaay too much like Peter Phen. I don't like that at all and I will not stay with this forum if your new "my way, or the highway" method of dealing with contentious threads remains as policy.
 
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PHRAG

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John M said:
It doesn't matter one whif wheather or not I agree with you and bwester, or if I agree with Dot and Peter. What you did is blatant censorship. After having your say and calling people names like "assholes" and "divas", do you really expect the rest of us to think only thoughts that you approve of and to talk only about subjects of which you approve?

So, we can expect free speech on this forum as long as you determine that what we are saying is responsible? But first, you indulge in a bit of drama, ranting and getting some stuff off your chest. Then, you lock the thread to prevent others from replying and you promise to lock any other thread on the same subject.
Isn't it amazing how in one breath you chide me for creating drama, and in the same breath create more drama? It's not easy posting when you are frustrated is it John?

I have and will continue to lock threads regarding the Glen Decker/H.P.Norton hybrid registration topic. At least one of the two main people involved have no desire to see this played out on this forum. Peter was not in any way authorized to speak on behalf of Glen Decker regarding the matter.

John M said:
While I agree that the thread in question was getting old, tired and even irritating, I still found myself "tuning in" to read the new posts. I was interested in seeing how this played out and who was right and who was wrong. Unfortunately, you got "sick to death of this" and you suddenly begin sounding wa-aaaaay too much like Peter Phen. I don't like that at all and I will not stay with this forum if your new "my way, or the highway" method of dealing with contentious threads remains as policy.
I hope the other administrators will pipe in here and address this statement. My opinion is this: We pay the bills for this forum, we allow people more freedom here than any other orchid forum out there, and we do it because we love it and not to make money. But I refuse to let the hybrid registration thing play on because real people's reputations were involved who have no desire to see it continue on this forum. If this upsets you, I guess you need to make the call whether you stay or not.
 
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PHRAG

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And another thing!

You realize we have three seperate threads running in which members can spew their vitriol in my direction for what I did? Doesn't sound like I am doing a very good job of playing dictator what with all these people able to tell me off.

Sounds like all of you who are claiming censorship have no ground to stand on really. None of these threads have been closed. And the one that was closed was closed for a good reason.
 

Hien

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My other post I thought that there are only two Gremlins threads from the original.
Did you say we have 3 now?
I must admit this is better than the movies, I miscount one.:rollhappy:
Sorry , but I just laugh so hard, even in argument , you guys still be able to bring me some unexpected enjoyment.

thanks
 

Marco

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Eric - First thing I thought of when I saw this was "man this is long". But, I did read the whole thing. Thank You! That was very, very refreshing and not boring at all. Enjoy your fishing and your day(s) off. Catch a nice one for us!
 

Heather

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PHRAG said:
But I refuse to let the hybrid registration thing play on because real people's reputations were involved who have no desire to see it continue on this forum.
I think this is the key statement here, and I think it makes sense to have shut down that thread at the point it had gotten too.
 

Ron-NY

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Heather said:
I think this is the key statement here, and I think it makes sense to have shut down that thread at the point it had gotten too.
I agree but what I was trying to point out ,at least in my opinion, it was was not Peter that brought it to that point.
 

bwester

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I'm stayin out of this thread, already been to the ER once this week for heart problems
 
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Greenthings

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PHRAG said:
I have and will continue to lock threads regarding the Glen Decker/H.P.Norton hybrid registration topic. At least one of the two main people involved have no desire to see this played out on this forum.
Who is it Phrag? HP Norton, or Manolo Arias? I know you were not contacted by Glen Decker

PHRAG said:
Peter was not in any way authorized to speak on behalf of Glen Decker regarding the matter.
That is absolutely false. Please do not make up stories to suit your ends Phrag.

Glen and I are partners in business and we discuss almost on a daily basis our business and what is said on this forum as well as my posts here.

Glen has given me the authority to write anything I want to say about the registration, for he is too busy joining this forum.

Now, if you need to see any documentation of all that I have said about the Pk hybrid registration troubles for Glen, us, that were started by a lie Manolo Arias told his trusting customer HP, then come to my place and I will show you the writings of the orchid registrar Julian Shaw and the e-mail in which HP tells Julian who told him the lie. If you want to check with Glen Decker, whether he authorized me to speak on his behalf write him, his e-mail is on the Piping Rock website and Google will find for you in 0.001 seconds, or less.

I have been involved with forums for over twenty years and I was co founder of the best general orchid forum in the world, the OGD. Let me tell you a secret that may help all three of you, since Heather has indicated that you are all still learning how to run a forum, and I am still willing to share with you.

Closing a civil thread where forum rules are followed is wrong and an effort in futility, for when the forum people want to talk about that topic they will open one or two new threads, as has just been proven yesterday.

Threads have a way of eventually closing themselves when only one interested person is left.. So when civil, leave them alone!!

You see, the forum is not about administrators, who certainly have their place, the forum is there because of the people who participate in threads and post. They are the essential ingredient of any forum, you cut them off, you have no forum.

I totally agree with John M's position in this post. I have known John for twenty years and you will be hard pressed to find a more knowledgable and accomplished slipper breeder anywhere. John is also a rational thinker. I just feel you should know this.
 
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Greenthings

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Eric Muehlbauer said:
OK....I have been considering my words for a very long time. For those of you who know me, I do not post serious comments casually. I think about them. Then think again. I post under my own name, on every forum I participate in. What I say remains on the net, for all to see, should they be so bored as to do a Google search under my name. I am very unhappy with the direction I have seen this board going in with regard to discussions by Peter Croezen.
Thank you Eric, much appreciated and good fishing. I am going trout fishing June 4-9

peter
 
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