My two cents worth

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ehanes7612

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charging over 40 dollars for a one growth sanderianum hybrid (unless its a division of an excellent clone) is unacceptable to me...i just dont see the justification in that type of pricing (and if your business depends on it , your probably in the wrong business anyway )...just my two cents worth
 
In Australia, you may be lucky to get a seedling not long out of a flask for $40.

I have always been astounded how cheap multi-florals are in the US. I remember seeing multi-growth PEOY's in bud for $39. Given how slow these things grow, I can't see how nurseries make any money selling that cheap. They would have to be selling at a loss.

David
 
Who talks about prices,first must calculate how much cost to a small nursery produce such a plant.Someone can do low price,but buying today from taiwan and resell tomorrow without growing the plant...this mean...no way to produce Paphs in my coutry(only way is to have a very big nursery selling mostly other things...and make a liveing on those).
 
In Australia, you may be lucky to get a seedling not long out of a flask for $40.

I have always been astounded how cheap multi-florals are in the US. I remember seeing multi-growth PEOY's in bud for $39. Given how slow these things grow, I can't see how nurseries make any money selling that cheap. They would have to be selling at a loss.

David

from what i understand, places that sell them that cheap are either hobbyists or have other substantial income (phals) and even places that sell them at high prices arent sustaining their business (there was some article on the state of nurseries recently)..and yeah , im only talking about the US...sanderianum hybrids are not a money maker at any price.. so , its my opinion that pricing is based more on emotional attachment rather than supply and demand...but although demand isnt that great (compared to phals and even..say.. brachy's)...pricing them more reasonably moves them, so the often said argument that they take up a lot of shelf space (time wise) doesnt hold water for me
 
Who talks about prices,first must calculate how much cost to a small nursery produce such a plant.Someone can do low price,but buying today from taiwan and resell tomorrow without growing the plant...this mean...no way to produce Paphs in my coutry(only way is to have a very big nursery selling mostly other things...and make a liveing on those).

let me repeat myself more eloquently if you are pricing based on cost to raise them and you cant sell them until you bring them down at a price that is nonsustainable..get out of the business
 
In Australia, you may be lucky to get a seedling not long out of a flask for $40.

I have always been astounded how cheap multi-florals are in the US. I remember seeing multi-growth PEOY's in bud for $39. Given how slow these things grow, I can't see how nurseries make any money selling that cheap. They would have to be selling at a loss.

David

Frank Booth is to blame :clap:
 
let me repeat myself more eloquently if you are pricing based on cost to raise them and you cant sell them until you bring them down at a price that is nonsustainable..get out of the business

...exactely,is this the reason why many nurseries are going out of buissness and many opportunities to have some fantastic breedings are lost forever...

...is like buying a Phalaenopsis in a megamall and pay it 5€,(the megamall is selling underprice,cause they selling other products at the side) and then go to a normal retailer and say him is a thief because is selling it at 20€...

But wich is the right price?..is simply the cost of production of the plant x 2 more or less...produced in your country(buissness is a thing,buy and sell...produce is another)
If you pay less you had a good deal
...and not opposite...that if you pay the right production price you have been cheated!
Love for orchids is also know that money you spend are improving your local production and quality,and not the mass market...ending nearly always,particularly in Paphs(no mericloning possible) in low quality.
 
let me repeat myself more eloquently if you are pricing based on cost to raise them and you cant sell them until you bring them down at a price that is nonsustainable..get out of the business

Most good breeders are already out of the business. If you want plants that are new and current better buy them now at whatever price you can find them. Don't rely on imported "new" hybrids. In the near future the imports will be stopped for any number of reasons.

$40 is a bargain for a plant that is probably 3 year old or more. Even gripes about the costs from ebay sellers should be directed at ebay's new improved higher fees and not the sellers. When you buy a $40 plant on ebay, ebay make more profit than the seller.
 
...exactely,is this the reason why many nurseries are going out of buissness and many opportunities to have some fantastic breedings are lost forever...

...is like buying a Phalaenopsis in a megamall and pay it 5€,(the megamall is selling underprice,cause they selling other products at the side) and then go to a normal retailer and say him is a thief because is selling it at 20€...

But wich is the right price?..is simply the cost of production of the plant x 2 more or less...produced in your country(buissness is a thing,buy and sell...produce is another)
If you pay less you had a good deal
...and not opposite...that if you pay the right production price you have been cheated!
Love for orchids is also know that money you spend are improving your local production and quality,and not the mass market...ending nearly always,particularly in Paphs(no mericloning possible) in low quality.

well, my focus is sanderianum hybrid breeding (focused hobbyist)...and ive talked to a few people who like to study trends..its just anecdotal but i am not so sure that nurseries (either by loss of business or by changing focus) is a detriment to great breeding with sanderianum hybrids.....its a mater of encouraging hobbyists to breed and share pollen ...i feel bad for nurseries who put all or much of their cookies in the last 20 years thinking this breeding would sustain them...but its the nature of the business, and ever changing.
I suspect that its the Taiwanese who have brought much of the great breeding to the world..especially in the US...maybe that will continue...(i hope)...i plan on focusing a great deal of attention on it myself (but i dont want to rely on it as income)...and some vendors may see me (and others like me) as the problem..but when i first got into multiflorals it was the dedicated hobbyists promoting this breeding, not the nurseries...so am i sympathetic ..to some degree...but it has its limits
 
Most good breeders are already out of the business. If you want plants that are new and current better buy them now at whatever price you can find them. Don't rely on imported "new" hybrids. In the near future the imports will be stopped for any number of reasons.

$40 is a bargain for a plant that is probably 3 year old or more. Even gripes about the costs from ebay sellers should be directed at ebay's new improved higher fees and not the sellers. When you buy a $40 plant on ebay, ebay make more profit than the seller.

sorry ..i dont buy this reasoning..simply because im not seeing new trends in breeding on ebay...their was chia hua dancer..but the market was saturated with them and i saw the prices drop on them rapidly (to sell them)

and Parkside seems to be the only vendor selling state of the art breeding, at least they are the only ones with a large selection, which is great but they are too expensive..and i recently read that they are converting much of their space to selling phals..and arent they trying to sell the business?

true it looks dismal for sanderianum breeding if you look at the demise of the nurseries..but if these plants are truely in demand ...then hobbyists will take up the slack (as it used to be)
 
sorry ..i dont buy this reasoning..simply because im not seeing new trends in breeding on ebay...their was chia hua dancer..but the market was saturated with them and i saw the prices drop on them rapidly


I'm not sure what you don't buy about this reasoning? Maybe I'm not clear about your point?

You don't see new trends on ebay for two reasons...
1. There is no profit to be made selling plants on ebay, only losses.
2. There are not many commercial domestic breeders making new hybrids now and the imported plants are too expensive to resell on ebay.
 
true it looks dismal for sanderianum breeding if you look at the demise of the nurseries..but if these plants are truely in demand ...then hobbyists will take up the slack (as it used to be)

Used to be backyard growers could afford to maintain a greenhouse to produce a few plants to sell. At $40 for a sanderanium hybrid you can't pay the heating bill by selling a few plants.
 
In my experience there is now very little room to make money selling paphs, especially if you are breeding them. 7 years ago I started to buy in Tawain breed plants via Hawaii and now I see the same plants for sale, some in bud, on Ebay for less than I paid for them as seedlings or nbs. The paph business is going ther way of Phals without the advantage of Tissue Culture!
 
sorry, should be more clear .was focusing on your statement "If you want plants that are new and current better buy them now at whatever price you can find them" and its true that ebay is difficult for making profits that need to sustain a business (if you rely on markups of 3x )..i agree with you on that point...but if you just want to make a little money or even break even (hobbyist) then its a good place to sell...which i think (hoping) once the shock of how disapointing the sales of sandy hybrids have been , hobbyists will pick up the slack...i think we are both in agreement about most of the problem
 
In my experience there is now very little room to make money selling paphs, especially if you are breeding them. 7 years ago I started to buy in Tawain breed plants via Hawaii and now I see the same plants for sale, some in bud, on Ebay for less than I paid for them as seedlings or nbs. The paph business is going ther way of Phals without the advantage of Tissue Culture!

true....still better than working for someone else, i guess

it will rest on the hobbyists to keep the paph trend going...i know quite a few people who will be releasing some amazing stuff in the next couple of years..honestly, i am more excited about the future of paphs than i have ever been...but i am biased
 
sorry, should be more clear .was focusing on your statement "If you want plants that are new and current better buy them now at whatever price you can find them" and its true that ebay is difficult for making profits that need to sustain a business (if you rely on markups of 3x )..i agree with you on that point...but if you just want to make a little money or even break even (hobbyist) then its a good place to sell...which i think (hoping) once the shock of how disapointing the sales of sandy hybrids have been , hobbyists will pick up the slack...i think we are both in agreement about most of the problem

Yeah I think we agree. The issue with developing improved hybrids is production quantity. The reason we are having so many great hybrids now is because over the last 20 years commercial growers grew out thousands of plants to select the best breeders. They used these selected plants to make new improvements in the hybrids. Small hobby growers will only be able to grow out a few plants to select from. So eventually over a few generations we won't see the same level of hybrid advancements.

But don't get me wrong I think it is great that the orchid hobby is heading back to "hobby". Big commercial growers have in a way taken the romance out of orchid collecting. It's better when a nice plant will cost $500!
 
always a good question to think of is how many people in the US want a sanderianum (or multi hybrid) or a hangianum or a gigantifolium or a kovachii of whatever. Probably tops out at a couple hundred, maybe a thousand tops. Probably most of those people at this point have one or several sanderianums and are now not interested in buying more of them. The market, and particularly the hobbyist market, is relatively saturated with these plants. A good demonstration of this is that you can own an awarded sandy - recently awarded sandy - for $400 (on Zephyrus Orchids' site, from their beautiful AQ), which is a tiny sum considering the original price of sanderianums 8-10 years ago.

I think that in paphs, if you're going to be selling commercially, you have to grow things up to flower as quickly as possible, and you have to find a market for unloading the junk you bloom out. There is always a market for good stuff, but unloading the junk is the challenge. In the US only in hawaii and in florida is the production cost of seedlings low enough to sell for less than your $40.
 
always a good question to think of is how many people in the US want a sanderianum (or multi hybrid) or a hangianum or a gigantifolium or a kovachii of whatever. Probably tops out at a couple hundred, maybe a thousand tops. Probably most of those people at this point have one or several sanderianums and are now not interested in buying more of them. The market, and particularly the hobbyist market, is relatively saturated with these plants. A good demonstration of this is that you can own an awarded sandy - recently awarded sandy - for $400 (on Zephyrus Orchids' site, from their beautiful AQ), which is a tiny sum considering the original price of sanderianums 8-10 years ago.

I think that in paphs, if you're going to be selling commercially, you have to grow things up to flower as quickly as possible, and you have to find a market for unloading the junk you bloom out. There is always a market for good stuff, but unloading the junk is the challenge. In the US only in hawaii and in florida is the production cost of seedlings low enough to sell for less than your $40.

true...and heating costs are expensive...testing ways to keep it down myself...but i beleive i can get the cost down to 5 dollars a plant ...but i live in seattle
 
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