Multifloral rot

[Trithor]

Thanks all for the info and concern. I will try as much of this as is feasible and update as things change (for the better or worse)

 

[cnycharles]

Might Cleary's 3336 be effective against Erwinia?

Erwinia is a bacteria, and 3336 is a fungicide. Sometimes chemicals can work a bit for things other than what they are labeled for, and someone might have tried it for bacteria so it is good to ask. For example, there are fungicides which have a side-effect of being growth regulators! I know of two fungicides that are novelly used to gently slow down plant growth of some plants, though their label does not list this use..... The label of a chemical usually would list if it is a fungicide/bactericide.

For a quick internet check, if you have or are curious about a chemical and want to know what it is (it's 'official' information) or what it does, or how much you might want to use, you want to look for it's 'label'. To check cleary's 3336 type in 'clearys 3336 label' and you'll find that information; usually the label will be in pdf form and then other information can be found after that.

A search for orchid bactericides erwinia chemical controls turns up a link to research using epiphytic bacterial isolates to inhibit the growth of erwinia amylovora (which isn't the erwinia in question attacking the orchids here). So, there are fungal inhibitors used for helping to prevent disease in the soil which have been used for orchid growing; maybe there is something biological that can be used to assist in staving off erwinia outbreaks. One research paper that popped up during my search showed that a non plant pathogenic erwinia helped to inhibit erwinia amylovora

 

[naoki]

Interested in the Aspirin method of preventing and stopping rot? Read this thread. http://http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25983&highlight=aspirin

Although, I'm not now as much exclusively an ASA user (I started dusting with Cinnamon or Sulfer again and I've started using No-Damp first, then following with the ASA spray the next day), I still consider the ASA a major component in my arsenal against rots.

John, are you using 500mg/l of aspirin (as indicated in the older thread)? I didn't know what would be the good concentration, so I followed someone who said 325mg/gallon (in the US, a tablet is 325mg), which is about 1/6 of yours.

One of the tomato research was feeding ASA via root absorption. So I've done both folliar spray and drenching.

It also seems to be beneficial for deflasking, too. I've deflasked only 3 times, so I don't have much experience. But the last time (this summer), I just used ASA without any other fungicide.

 

[Trithor]

Well I have added two extra fans to the greenhouse to improve air movement. All affected/infected plants have been cleaned, repotted, dusted all over with cinnamon powder, given an asprin (in case they get a headache), sprayed with cinnamon 'tea', and moved to a shady spot in the garden.
I have started to move henrys, villosums, micranthums and a few others into wooden baskets. I should have around a hundred in baskets by nightfall. I might have to put a staff member onto making more baskets tomorrow. I thought I had enough baskets to last me a lifetime (obviously not, unless I die today, then that original estimate will still hold true)

 

[gonewild]

I thought I had enough baskets to last me a lifetime (obviously not, unless I die today, then that original estimate will still hold true)

You better keep a close watch on your basket inventory.

 

[Rick]

Do plants have immune systems?

If it is the result of produced hormones then someone needs to discover the hormone compound!

Yes. Maybe its not as complex as for animals, but looks pretty complex to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=imm...%2Fwww.mpipz.mpg.de%2F10563%2Fpmi-dpt;800;613

 

[Rick]

I know we are talking about Erwinia, but it's interesting that this nature review paper talks that one species of Pseudomonas (not sure if it is the same species for orchids) produces jasmonic acid mimic (which suppress salycilic acid based defense system). So for this, it sounds like aspirin "could" help.

Just knowing that plants have a salycilic based defense system generally gives more weight to the use of aspirin for treatment.

 

[Trithor]

I decided not to tempt fate and stopped with two baskets to spare. Time for a glass of red wine, then I can share an asprin with my plants in the morning

 

[Rick]

http://www.pnas.org/content/92/10/4076.full.pdf

Check this out.

The plant physiologists have no problems linking disease resistance to salicylic acid which seems to be a natural phenomena in all plants (not just white willow!).

But it also seems to be established data that salicylic acid suppresses K and PO4 uptake by plants. Could this also suggest the inverse that high K and P inhibit the production of salicylic acid production in plants?:evil:

Why would the immune response in plants include an inhibition of K and P uptake?

 

[Rick]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...WNFEzBJEEaCiaKV9YA3Khwg&bvm=bv.52164340,d.eWU

Another agri link to salicylic acid and K.

check out the discussion that shows salicylic acid increases photosynthesis while reducing K (and for one reference) increasing Ca.

 

[John M]

John, are you using 500mg/l of aspirin (as indicated in the older thread)? I didn't know what would be the good concentration, so I followed someone who said 325mg/gallon (in the US, a tablet is 325mg), which is about 1/6 of yours.
I began using extra strength Aspirin (500 mg). Then, I learned that I was using it at a rate much higher than recommended. But, I liked the results that I saw; so, I compromised and lowered the concentration a bit and began using the regular strength, 325 mg tablets. I believe that this is still higher than required; but, it seems to work well for me. So, I haven't tried it at an even lower concentration.

It also seems to be beneficial for deflasking, too. I've deflasked only 3 times, so I don't have much experience. But the last time (this summer), I just used ASA without any other fungicide. I spray seedlings with the Aspirin water as a preventative and then, later, if I see any rot, I'll do it again.

Rick. Those are some interesting findings. It seems that, in the end, everything ties together!

 

[TyroneGenade]

The plant immune system is still a bit of a mystery. SA is a very common anti bacterial (and anti-viral) compound produced by plants but there are many other compounds, such as tannins and phytoalexins, which plants produce to prevent invasion of their tissues. Not only is there a hormonal system in the plant that alerts all tissues to invasion but the plants can communicate with neighbors to tell them to turn on their immune systems--perhaps this is why compots are so effective for orchids, one gets hit and the others are forewarned?

Trithor inspect each plant very carefully and make sure you keep the infected plants away from the others.

 

[gonewild]

but the plants can communicate with neighbors to tell them to turn on their immune systems--

Based on this fact of inter-individual communication should we, under rules of Humanity, continue to murder and eat plants?

 

[TyroneGenade]

A question far too deep and philosophical for this forum, I think. Perhaps you should raise the issue on a PETA sponsored forum instead.

 

[Cheyenne]

The plant immune system is still a bit of a mystery. SA is a very common anti bacterial (and anti-viral) compound produced by plants but there are many other compounds, such as tannins and phytoalexins, which plants produce to prevent invasion of their tissues. Not only is there a hormonal system in the plant that alerts all tissues to invasion but the plants can communicate with neighbors to tell them to turn on their immune systems--perhaps this is why compots are so effective for orchids, one gets hit and the others are forewarned?

Trithor inspect each plant very carefully and make sure you keep the infected plants away from the others.

If plants can warn there neighbors to turn on there immune system when theyare infected, wouldn't you want to leave them with the other plants so they can warn them. If you remove them the bacteria is probably already in the area and the already infected plants can't tek the others.

 

[TyroneGenade]

There is some debate as to how plants communicate. One idea is that they can do so via an interconnected root system. This was found to be the case with some Acacia trees in the Kruger National Park that were poisoning grazers. Most of the trees react to grazing by increasing production of alkaloids. Grazers have evolved to move quickly from tree to tree, nibbling a little bit as they go. The accacia were in communication and entire grove was upregulating alkaloid production all at once. Several grazers met an unexpected end.

So, one idea is that plants talk via their roots. As such, the close root contact in small pots could allow for communication (as well as more rapid chemical modification of the environment for nutrient extraction). Of course, we keep our adult plants individually in pots and plants don't seem to communicate via the air. The bacteria seem to waft about by air very effectively. Quarantining infected plants is, IMO, essential to getting this problem under control.

 

[ALToronto]

I guess the plants have to be of the same variety for this communication to occur. My personal experience with plant combinations in the same container is that one or two will survive at the expense of all the others, but that's with different types of plants.

 

[Cheyenne]

In one plant class I took, I think I Remember plants can communicate using certain compounds(maybe hormones) they can release in the air.

Also in another thread a while ago I had mentioned this. At the time nobody really paid any attention to it. But I saw a study done on a show where they showed plants can communicate and also share nutients and compounds with each other via myco fungi connecting there roots together. The reason for this study was to see how a little sapling can survive under the giant canopy of all the other plants in very poor conditions, yet grow at a very fast rate. It showed that the larger trees were actually giving the small ones nurients to help them survive and grow till they can reach the light and better conditions. It was very cool to see that instead of survial of the fittest, they were living as a community and helping each other. I speculated at the time this may be why you can have faster growth and a better survial rate in a community pot than individual pots.

 

[eggshells]

There is a documentary on PBS Nature that explains how plants communicate. When under attack, feeding, warning, etc.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/what-plants-talk-about/video-full-episode/8243/

 

[TyroneGenade]

Cool, I wasn't aware plant could communicate via the air. They get more fantastic every day.

Thanks for the info Cheyenne and Eggshells. Very cool.

ALToronto, there is a lot of allepathy among different plants and it is a killer... But seedlings seem to like community. I do wonder if, at some later stage, they begin to try kill each other off. Hmm... I sense a study of mixed-species compots coming on... Thank goodness I don't have a greenhouse a big budget to indulge my experimental whims.