the later.
LEGAL Paphiopedilum hangianum
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the later.
I dont think you will see a slew of hangianum flask being imported from all sources. When I talked to Fisheries and Wildlife about it, they were very strict on the point that plants had to be verified as sourced from legitimate stock and that had been propagated. Otherwise I would have been sending hangianum flasks to the USA ages back.
I will contact F&W again on the matter to ask for more info.
I hope Holger makes some money out of it. He has put in the hard work, so he deserves it. It took him a lot to get these certified as legal plants out of China.
Brett
I will contact F&W again on the matter to ask for more info.
I hope Holger makes some money out of it. He has put in the hard work, so he deserves it. It took him a lot to get these certified as legal plants out of China.
Brett
Roth
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It's not that... wild collected, established hangianum will be imported from many sources under complex hybrid names, than the invoice from Holger will be used to sell those plants very cheaply. That's the way the business has always been running for that kind of thing.
Hangianum from seed is very costly, very slow growing. jungle, previously bloomed, cultivated plants cost less than 5USD in Taiwan. No one can make a blooming size hangianum for 5USD from seed in this world.
Anyway, anyone can have instant legitimate stock with one of Holger invoice, even for 3 plants. Imagine a Taiwanese nursery buying 5 legal hangianum with CITES. All of its flasks, plants, seedlings, species, hybrids, become legal after a few months. Exported to the USA, the F&W has to accept it, because the exporter bought 5 legal hangianum with CITES. Period. Same happened to me with the fucking gigantifolium. I imported legal plants with CITES, divided some of them, propagated some, sold some plants with CITES copies. Well, I sold 7 plants, to 3 people. Afterwards, gigantifolium from more, and more sources became legal, and now they are legal, but I sold 7 plants and made flasks that are worthless. I will NEVER grow a seedling to blooming size and sell it for 2USD a 2growth plant, no way.
Note, since thaianum can be exported legally from Thailand, massive quantities are being collected, like never before. That proves my point that when a species is legalized, it's not artificial propagation that follows most of the time, but green light for wild, cultivated plants, because they are cheaper than any propagated plant :evil:
Sorry Xavier, I dont buy your $5 per seedling argument. It costs me 100 baht (US$3.50- min buy of 10 flasks) per flask over a year or two in Thailand. I have friends making paph flasks and have taken that long or more in the lab. Thailands not expensive to produce flasks.
Well yes you could buy Holgers flasks, but hey, surely F&W/USDA are not that dumb that they cant tell hangianum in flask cant be produced from flasked plants that fast... Um.. or are they? Lets see. Time will tell. I will wait for the USA hangianum glut and I will check if Thai CITES will let me send some.. Hey, if they will let me, great. Last time I mentioned Vietnamese species (hangianum, helenae) to them, they said no way.
Sorry, I also dont buy the legalisation means an easy CITES arguement. Some countries, perhaps. Others no. But then the USA reaction will tell at the recieveing end.
I sent Thaianum legally to Australia as mature plants last year and even though the plants were cultured from seed and certified, CITES Thailand nearly rejected them. I sent plants from the same batch to Japan and they got sent back. USDA refused non-flask plants 6 months later.
Hmm for someone based in Vietnam you seem to know a lot about thaianum trafficking here. Sorry, I dont believe you. I see wild markets weekly (no not just Jatujak) and know enough people who will say your story is bull
Brett
Well yes you could buy Holgers flasks, but hey, surely F&W/USDA are not that dumb that they cant tell hangianum in flask cant be produced from flasked plants that fast... Um.. or are they? Lets see. Time will tell. I will wait for the USA hangianum glut and I will check if Thai CITES will let me send some.. Hey, if they will let me, great. Last time I mentioned Vietnamese species (hangianum, helenae) to them, they said no way.
Sorry, I also dont buy the legalisation means an easy CITES arguement. Some countries, perhaps. Others no. But then the USA reaction will tell at the recieveing end.
I sent Thaianum legally to Australia as mature plants last year and even though the plants were cultured from seed and certified, CITES Thailand nearly rejected them. I sent plants from the same batch to Japan and they got sent back. USDA refused non-flask plants 6 months later.
Hmm for someone based in Vietnam you seem to know a lot about thaianum trafficking here. Sorry, I dont believe you. I see wild markets weekly (no not just Jatujak) and know enough people who will say your story is bull
Brett
Rick
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Pete's a good grower too, and they'll be blooming and breeding in no time.
I expect the shift in legal hangianum will be much faster than for kovachii since they have been worked over culturally for more years and in much greater numbers.
They'll be as easy to get as emersonii in short order. (And then emersonii will probably disappear from cultivation.
oke:oke Kind of like the way parishii and dianthum trade off on availability.
Roth
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Actually the flask price is about 70thb. Add to that about 5 years growing for Hangianum from flask, risk of losses, and a percentage of the seedlings from flask will not grow fast. So the price per plant will approx 5USD, after 7 years - 6 months to make seeds from a blooming plant, a year and a half to make seedlings in flask, 5 years to get plants in bloom. OR get precultivated hangianum from Taiwan, 2 years out of the wild, it costs 5USD, and they are available right now with nice leaves and roots.
Japan rejects easily imports, because the plants need to be certified 1D not 1A if their discovery occured AFTER Paphiopedilum have been placed on Appendix I. It is their local law in Japan regarding CITES Appendix 1 plants. Thailand usually makes CITES for 1A, and this is usually rejected. I know as I exported plants to Japan many times. If you got plants rejected, it is most likely because of that. You cannot get the 1D, or very rarely, and the CITES office usually does not agree to make 1D CITES in Thailand. Get a 1D CITES from Thailand, then you can export to Japan freely. Same for the USA.
Taiwan can issue anytime a 1D CITES. This type of Appendix 1 CITES MUST BE accepted by the parties as a proof that the plants are artificially propagated from legitimate parents, in a locally certified nursery. The parties, if the species is non-native to Taiwan, like hangianum, can request a proof that parents have been legally imported. So a CITES from Holger to Taiwan, a year later, everything is kosher.
I am sure that if you import legal hangianum with CITES, you can get pretty soon export CITES from Thailand by the way.
For thaianum, I was there a month ago, and that was the very first time I have seen offered a thousand real plants at once at very cheap price - and they were not on the wild markets believe it or not. Some more nurseries had nice big batches freshly potted as well. Suddenly, when the species can be legalized, massive batches appear. And even on Jatujak, there were two sellers who had basket with about a hundred plants each, one with the orchid people, and another one on the opposite close to the huge trees sellers. I don't care if you believe me or not, but so far, yes, I know pretty much everything that goes on in Asia with paphs, even if I am in Vietnam.
Don't forget too that there are different groups of people, and if you don't know all of them, and some are quite conservative regarding who they are dealing/talking with, you will not know anything. If you go to Malaysia, some nurseries and hobbyists will tell you that rothschildianum costs a hundred bucks a growth, is very rare. Another group of people, who has the proper connections, will tell you that it is right now 4USD per plant, and there are some thousands available. Same for concolor longipetalum, some people can painfully get 20 wild collected plants, some others can get several boxes in no time.
However, this said, I expect that line bred thaianum are going to catch up on the market in the coming years, like the line bred niveum, concolor, godefroyae and the like in Thailand. You should remember too that brachypetalum blooms typically a year to two years out of flask, where things like hangianum will be 5 years, parishii, dianthum, ooii, intaniae, gigantifolium, 4-7 years on average. Some will bloom before, most will bloom in this timeframe and after. It makes a big difference.
As for hangianum, there will be blooming size seedlings from selected parents for sure in the future, yet if we follow armeniacum, emersonii, malipoense, most of the trade is made of wild collected plants cultivated for a while. There are blooming size seedlings available of those three, but not so many in fact. It has to do with the fact too that they are very cheap as precultivated plant ( armeniacum 2US, emersonii 3US, and malipoense 2US for very big, healthy and strong plants from Taiwan, but guaranteed lousy flowers).
Pete's a good grower too, and they'll be blooming and breeding in no time.
I expect the shift in legal hangianum will be much faster than for kovachii since they have been worked over culturally for more years and in much greater numbers.
They'll be as easy to get as emersonii in short order. (And then emersonii will probably disappear from cultivation.
Well, for parishii and dianthum, both are supplied mostly from wild cultivated plants, same for most emersonii, one has to say the truth. So when the stocks are depleted, it can take a while before they are available again. There are seedlings, like for emersonii, but they represent a fraction of the total offer.
Rick
Well-Known Member
True I'm sure for Asian ( I can't vouch for European) markets. US and Australia seem to be relying mostly on seed grown plants produced from a tiny handful of wild stock or early generation stock.
Go to any big garden center or nursery, and orchids are a tiny fraction of what the general US population is interested in. Maybe because they can't be maintained outside year round, or a general disinterest in natural beauty. But American households are generally disinterested in maintaining cheap and disposable houseplants compared to Asian counterparts. If Americans want to spend time maintaining something, their cars, computers, TV sets and I pods are way out front on interest before even dogs/cats other pets or houseplants.
The primary US orchid market (especially for plants other than hybrid phalaes) is driven by a small population of enthusiasts with inherent value driven tastes. Species are only popular as long as they are uncommon and expensive. So a US seed propagated paph is somewhat competitive and profitable. A flood of cheap imports (either collected or propagated) will drop the price down to African violet levels and then the enthusiasts will loose interest, and the general consumer would rather stick with free flowering African violets or the other myriad of easy to bloom windowsill plants. Emersonii has never shown up on the average American's kitchen table.
ehanes7612
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wasnt there a recent report that orchids have become the second largest consumer purchase of plants, second only to poinsettias? orchids (phals and intergenerics) are becoming increasingly popular and overwhelming grocery stores ..they are becoming very cheap...most people buy plants in general stores and supermarkets not nurseries
Rick
Well-Known Member
That's true, but we are still not talking species paphs, and plants in general are still way down the list on what Americans bring into their homes to take care of in their homes. How many people do you know (excluding NYEric
oke: and the 150 or so indoor plant growers on ST) have their windowsills, countertops, coffee tables, sunrooms, bathroom counters.......covered in potted plants (let alone poinsettias and orchids)? This apparently is not a rare condition in Asian countries. Also survey the ST participants about what percentage of their plants are purchased from supermarkets or nursery and I would suspect is a fairly low percent (we tend to go for the value stuff). I frequently talk to members of rose, gesneriad, iris, and general garden society folk who are completely flabergasted that anyone would pay more than $5 dollars for an orchid when you can get what they are growing for so much less. They just about pass out when I tell them I may pay more than $20 for a plant thats only in bloom for a couple months for the year. I would probably have to agree with Roth with regards to indoor plant purchases overall that US is probably a drop in the global bucket for indoor pot plant consumption, and subsequently the US influence on conservation because of financial power is probably negligable.
Guys, there is no need for guessing & predicting, here is the current price:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ORCHID-P...?pt=AU_Plants_Seeds_Bulbs&hash=item2c5e072537
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ORCHID-P...?pt=AU_Plants_Seeds_Bulbs&hash=item2c5e072537
paphioboy
hehehe...
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They just about pass out when I tell them I may pay more than $20 for a plant thats only in bloom for a couple months for the year.
/QUOTE]
:rollhappy: :rollhappy: But then again, we orchid growers are fanatics, almost cult status compared to them mere non-orchid growing mortals..
I believe the seller is Darren (Bolero over here)...
Rick
Well-Known Member
[
/QUOTE]
:rollhappy: :rollhappy: But then again, we orchid growers are fanatics, almost cult status compared to them mere non-orchid growing mortals..
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gods
or Demons:evil:
Roth
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For Europe it is very true. Most hobbyists have no understanding about parentage, so you still can sell easily rothschildianum without parent names there.
For the USA, some species are propagated, because the flower quality is superior to the wild plants (rothschildianum as an example, but not all. There are still wild roths entering the USA, like Redlands, etc... This is marginal however). Many species are propagated too.
However some species are rarely propagated, and sold usually as seedling sized plants for the propagated ones, like emersonii, exul, parishii, dianthum (except the album of course), armeniacum, micranthum, malipoense...
The adults of those species are said to be 'imported' or 'divisions', and end of the story. Three reasons, some are not easy to propagate in big quantities, they are slow growing, and the wild cultivated plants are cheaper. The parishii that you have in the USA at 50-75USD a growth are wild, precultivated plants from Thailand, where they cost 3-5US a growth. Emersonii, armeniacum, etc... they are 'nice blooming size plants' or 'divisions', and end of the story. But they are wild plants for most of them, no mistake. I do no condone or criticize, that's just a fact.
The market in the USA, and many parts of the world is protected, because it requires great knowledge of the networks and sources to get the plants. Otherwise you will be doomed soon, like a certain someone who imported sanderianum and gigantifolium in Hawaii years ago.
So not many people import anyway, because not many people know where to get plants at the proper price, with the proper paperwork, and none of the real sources from Asia for this kind of things are on the internet or attend exhibitions overseas, even today (they will not even attend Singapore WOC, because they already sold to the resellers that will be there, and they never want to compete with the distributors/resellers). There are several for EACH Asian country.
If they don't know you, they don't reply to you, period. If they know that you will not buy big batches, they will offer you a few plants at 'public price'. If they know that you may be a wholesaler, you get an offer for some hundreds, like the thaianum in Thailand, and for business they have no 'friends' to whom they will do confidences.
I would say many paphiopedilum (except the ones from selected parents) are like a diamond. By a careful market control (kovachii was a blatant, public example), the price can be pushed way over its real value and controlled. Things like the Dou Fong x Green Valley, Fly Eagle x Big Garden, this kind of crap, the US importers paid 15US per plant, not more. Yet they are offered from between 90 and 400USD per plant. Some had wonderful blooms, so they were worth even more, but most of them not so to be honest.
Armeniacum, they paid 2-3 USD to Taiwan, sold from 30 to 95USD. On the other side, as I said before, the market is very small, and if someone was offering armeniacum blooming size at 10USD in the US, he would not sell more plants than if he is selling them for 50USD. He would even loose money.
NYEric
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But we make up for the rest of the country, right?!How many people do you know (excluding NYEric
This is probably true, which makes the way US restrictions are imposed even more ridiculous!
The natural habitats are raped while the propagation materials are not allowed to be shipped to growers.The Paph thaianum I sent to Japan that got rejected were 1D certified by Bangkok CITES. I had to get that to send them to Australia too and Australia accepted them with the 1D. I got this for 20+ plants from Chiang Mai with a reciept from the certified seller.
Well to be honest I doubt Holger is too concerned with USA sales anyway even if it now opens the gates, as the Chinese market is huge, and the now can export legally out if China to other countries that have less issues with regard to Vietnamese species.
YEs, there are quantities of said thaianum on offer at JJ and other markets: well said to be so, but then even paph experts cant be certain on these until they bloom as I have seen. A couple of visiting Paph exports IDed some plants for me a while ago and half bloomed as thaianum and others 1 hybrid and godefroyae dwarf form. I dont think because thaianum now can enter the USA that the flood gates are open. Firstly CITES Thailand doesnt approve the plants unless they feel they look cultivated. I have seen them reject plants with documents, but looking damaged. More likely plants are to go elsewhere or the local market, and thaianum has been popular here of late. Good thing is flasks are now being produced with line bred forms.
Roth you are right that thaianum line bred will catch up, as it is already being worked on here in Thailand with hobbyists select breeding already.
Interesting how you keep ripping into the Taiwanese, when I have seen some plants imported to Thailand with great form flowers. But I am sure you will say otherwise, as you are the all knowing.
Any way, this is way of topic and my last comment on this.. Good luck getting more hangianum into the USA. I hope we see more of this species legally sent there soon.
Brett
Well to be honest I doubt Holger is too concerned with USA sales anyway even if it now opens the gates, as the Chinese market is huge, and the now can export legally out if China to other countries that have less issues with regard to Vietnamese species.
YEs, there are quantities of said thaianum on offer at JJ and other markets: well said to be so, but then even paph experts cant be certain on these until they bloom as I have seen. A couple of visiting Paph exports IDed some plants for me a while ago and half bloomed as thaianum and others 1 hybrid and godefroyae dwarf form. I dont think because thaianum now can enter the USA that the flood gates are open. Firstly CITES Thailand doesnt approve the plants unless they feel they look cultivated. I have seen them reject plants with documents, but looking damaged. More likely plants are to go elsewhere or the local market, and thaianum has been popular here of late. Good thing is flasks are now being produced with line bred forms.
Roth you are right that thaianum line bred will catch up, as it is already being worked on here in Thailand with hobbyists select breeding already.
Interesting how you keep ripping into the Taiwanese, when I have seen some plants imported to Thailand with great form flowers. But I am sure you will say otherwise, as you are the all knowing.
Any way, this is way of topic and my last comment on this.. Good luck getting more hangianum into the USA. I hope we see more of this species legally sent there soon.
Brett
Roth
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Legally they cannot reject them then you have the right to ask the reasons, scientifical authority or paperwork matter, and challenge it.
Actually the thousands batch plant I have seen is thaianum for most of it, without doubt. What's strange is that many were in low bud, but they were thaianum. I ll post a photo of those later.
So we have not seen the same shipments, I have seen some shipments out of thailand with freaky wild collected plants, including paph intaniae, gigantifolium (the same posted by Paphioboy in the gigantifolium thread), few weeks ago... Or most likely the shipment sent is not the shipment shown to get the CITES permit and they are swapped before the cargo.
I have several close friends in Taiwan, including the former TOGA president, some TPS former presidents, etc... You can ask them if you know them. But even some of them are not too confident about many tagging of paphs from some nurseries in Taiwan, and if the parents said are the parents used...
Now, there are excellent things going out of Taiwan, but there are more lower quality plants, way more. Rothschildianum is a blatant example, some nurseries (iweyshen is around on the forum), you buy roth A x B, you bloom them, you are happy and get many good to excellent flowers.
Some other nurseries, you buy big batches ( I bought up to 200 NBS roth from some crosses, so I have a bit of expertise in the field, and that's what decided me to pay 15000USD for the Mt Millais motherplant, at least I know what I am getting, rather than spending over the years 15000USD to find out that none of the roth seedlings bloom true or nice...), you bloom them, you realize that they are from several different parents, and none is good.
I would say that Ruey An, Mainshow Orchids, Shin-Yi, Iweyshen/Shen Yi-Wey would be my best choices to get genuine great things. Ching Hua for Maudiae paphs as well. The remaining is hit and miss, most of the time miss.
Some nurseries in Taiwan are specialized in wild collected paphs only, thousands of fresh wild plants, when they have clean leaf, export. Ask Holger Perner even about that, he made a tour during the Taiwan show, and visited such places. There were even a couple hundreds kovachii in bloom (first and only time I saw wild kovachii in quantity, but they were legally exported/imported from Peru, so...).
Some others specialize in flasks, I visited one of them, the wild plants with capsules were in total delirium, but the owner told me his business is flasks, not plants. Indeed, seeing a 8 flowers kolopakingii, rootless from the wild, with 8 seed caps does not preclude any good prognosis for the plants.
They are wholesalers, who usually sell to other Taiwanese nurseries, and those later nurseries put their names on the flasks and plants to be exported. So the access to such places is really not easy.
M
Marc
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Sorry but I'm not sure what you mean, are your stating that a lot of the plants available in Europe are propagated? Or are lot of the plants available in Europe smuggled and wild collected plants?
I might be naive and blind but as far as Paphs go I haven't seen any plants which are obviously wild collected. And the few nurseries that I've visited since my interest in Paphs was reignited seem to do a lot of propagating themselves.
And regarding the lack of interest in breeding lines in Europe I partially blame the judging systems that various societies have. I'm not a veteran in the orchid hobby but I've allready seen and heard about various judgings that easily raise an eyebrow or two.
Roth
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Yes, there is a large amount of paphs in Europe that are definitely not propagated... Look at the following as an example (wild taken is obvious, import means AS WELL wild taken)
satira.juf.ru/db/elsner-price2.xls
At least you get a pricelist where the things are clear. But many other nurseries deal the same species, same plants. Some species, i have never seen blooming size plants that were not wild collected in Europe, like sangii, mastersianum, zieckianum, violascens. Mastersianum from the wild is pretty impressive, big plants, healthy leaves, not a single mark anywhere, nice roots... They look in fact better than cultivated ones.
Now if you imagine wild collected plants to look very rough, it's a very big mistake. Most malipoense fresh from the wild have pristine leaves. micranthum can have several growths with perfect leaves and roots, and be fresh from the wild. many sanderianum can get a CCM/AOS anytime out of the jungle. Look in the gigantifolium thread about the photos of the wild plants. That's the real wild collected plants.
Violascens:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Paphiopedilum-violascens-4-/250823570353#ht_500wt_1156
Sangii:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270752480215
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270748085395
Randsii:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270754146747
Anitum:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250825569576#ht_500wt_1156
And the sister plants of Hakone's photos zieckianum semialbum here:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270740947686#ht_500wt_1156
wild zieckianum.
Those are guaranteed not seed grown, but the leaves look more or less fine. I know what they are because I know how they arrived in Europe, so I know what I am talking about.
You are right for the judging systems, except England, it has little meaning. The DOG system has no meaning whatsoever, a lot of plants are awarded with below average quality flowers, or worse, they have a GM/DOG, which is a FCC equivalent but for CULTURE, not for flower ( they state it in the award description). I myself attended a judging some years ago in Germany where a cymbidium goeringii got a SM/DOG for the flowers, because it had many flowers, well it was a kanran
At a time as well the DOG would award all the plants from some exhibitors, and none from the others.
The RHS system on the other side is excellent, and the awards are longer lasting than eve the AOS. A FCC/AOS usually lasts a couple of years before something far superior appears ( like for rothschildianum armeniacum, micranthum, many Maudiae hybrids paphs). A FCC/RHS, well think about Maudiae The Queen, rothschidianum Mt Millais, Eric Young Trinity. All of those are still worth of their award as of today.
NYEric
Well-Known Member
Interesting info.
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