Phred
Well-Known Member
This is a mericlone of the awarded Lc. Mini Purple ‘Tamami’ AM/AOS. The flower is a nice but the foliage, which is variegated, is even nicer. Haven’t seen one like this before.
Lc. Mini Purple
- Thread starter Phred
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That’s interesting the flower is normal too. Love variegated leaves.
monocotman
Well-Known Member
Interesting!
David
David
Ozpaph
Well-Known Member
ditto
Beautifull both flower and leaves! The variegated leaves, that almost look like a cross with Neofinetia, ought to make the japanese drool! 
NYEric
Well-Known Member
Cool. I used to have mini-Catts. Very sad story. 
SouthPark
Well-Known Member
Interesting Phred! I definitely didn't know that 'Tamami' has variegated leaves. I grow a 'Tamami' ----- and mine doesn't have variegated leaves. And I haven't seen photos online of 'Tamami' with variegated leaves. Which then raises the question of whether your orchid really is a 'Tamami'. It probably isn't a Tamami ----- or at least not anymore. Quite a special one!
Phred
Well-Known Member
Obviously a mutation through mericlon process but from Tamami for sure
SouthPark
Well-Known Member
I also believe it was from 'Tamami'. It is now a different name! Eg. 'Tamami m. Variegated' (example only ----- Tamami mutation variegated). And very nice too.
Phred
Well-Known Member
I've asked a number of people and the comcesis is 'Tamami' but maybe Leslie could confirm
SouthPark
Well-Known Member
Once the DNA has changed, it is no longer the same cultivar. It is a different 'person'. Your orchid is ultra nice Phred! You rightfully can choose a cultivar name for that one maybe.
Phred
Well-Known Member
I'd love too... was planning on having it judged but the center closed down again
Notice, SP says it's "from 'Tamami" and thus recognizes it's origin/heritage!
May I propose: LC Mini Purple 'Tamami' typo variegatum?
But the suggestion to consult Leslie (DrLeslieEe) is a sound one - with his profound knowledge and many years of experience in the field of Catts! We would also almost have a direct link to the august body of AOS with his status as ass. judge!
May I propose: LC Mini Purple 'Tamami' typo variegatum?
But the suggestion to consult Leslie (DrLeslieEe) is a sound one - with his profound knowledge and many years of experience in the field of Catts! We would also almost have a direct link to the august body of AOS with his status as ass. judge!
Phred
Well-Known Member
I selfed it last bloom but I think I waited too long and the pod failed right away
SouthPark
Well-Known Member
A fair proposal!
Although, I was under the impression that a cultivar name associated with a cultivar plant ----- is tied to directly to DNA. So a division, or a clone (where a clone for example refers to a meri-stem propagated orchid having exact DNA copy of the original) can have a cultivar name that is the same as the 'original' plant.
But if a mutation somehow occurs, then the mutated orchid no longer has the same DNA ----- so it will not be the same cultivar, and so it is then free to get assigned a new cultivar name.
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It is not unusual for a mutation of a mericlone population to differ enough to warrant its own cultivar name, particularly when a flower changes to similar (but different color or markings) or better (thicker, larger, more spotting etc). Case in point is the Phalaenopsis Golden Peoker 'Brother' that mutated to harlequins 'SJ', 'Everspring', 'Nancho' and 'BL'. These were so significantly different that they created the fantastical harlequin phals we see today.
Leaf mutations are rarely noted with new cultivar names if the flowers remain the same as the original for size and color. They may instead be given a horticultural name instead like the mutate leaf phals and odonts. If an award is given to commend the leaves, usually a new name is not given out, but merely a point is made that the mericlone has 'interesting' leaf patterns, worthy of recognition.
In the case for this Mini Purple, I compared the original award photos and the current photo. It looks like Phred's flower is bigger and rounder (esp the petals) than the original photo. If Fred can give the dimensions (NS, size of petals and lip, both by width x length, in cm ;o) and feel the texture (medium, firm, hard), we can ascertain if the plant had mutated to a polyploid (4N?) in conjunction with the leaf changes. In this case, the plant can be possibly deemed sufficiently with enough differences from the original plant to warrant a new cultivar designation.
Also, research must be done to see if this plant is unique for the leaf traits or if it was mericloned specifically for the leaf mutation, and that there are not thousands out there.
I will confer with AOS HQ further in this and get back to this thread when I get a confirmation.
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Thank you, Leslie, I knew we could count on your expertise! 
SouthPark
Well-Known Member
I really like Mini Purple a lot ......... currently growing 'Tamami', 'Tracy', and 'Orchid Centre'.
It will be nice to check ----- for orchids only ----- that 'cultivar' pertains to orchids having all the same DNA ....... identical DNA match (if theoretically possible to test for identical DNA match). Any mismatch at all in an individual from the rest of the group .... different DNA sequence ..... will be a different 'cultivar'. Or if a different word is to be used ------- we can use 'clonal name'. And 'clone' is an exact copy ------ full DNA match. Anything that doesn't have exact DNA match will not be a clone.
That's my assumption - which is assuming the words within the pair of single quotation marks is 'clonal name' or 'cultivar name' ........ and the definition of cultivar name in the orchid arena (eg. AOS) is probably different from the regular horticultural definition of cultivar.
It will be nice to check ----- for orchids only ----- that 'cultivar' pertains to orchids having all the same DNA ....... identical DNA match (if theoretically possible to test for identical DNA match). Any mismatch at all in an individual from the rest of the group .... different DNA sequence ..... will be a different 'cultivar'. Or if a different word is to be used ------- we can use 'clonal name'. And 'clone' is an exact copy ------ full DNA match. Anything that doesn't have exact DNA match will not be a clone.
That's my assumption - which is assuming the words within the pair of single quotation marks is 'clonal name' or 'cultivar name' ........ and the definition of cultivar name in the orchid arena (eg. AOS) is probably different from the regular horticultural definition of cultivar.
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eds
Well-Known Member
A cultivar doesn't have to be genetically identical - outside of orchids there are annual cultivars propagated by seed which, by their nature, are genetically different to greater or lesser degrees.
The 9th edition of the ICNCP (International Code of Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants) just states they should retain their characteristics and be propagated in a way that ensures they maintain their characteristics.
So, as long as this plant can be propagated in a way that maintains these new characteristics and they are stable (which isn't always the case with variegation) then it would warrant a new cultivar name IMO.
The 9th edition of the ICNCP (International Code of Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants) just states they should retain their characteristics and be propagated in a way that ensures they maintain their characteristics.
So, as long as this plant can be propagated in a way that maintains these new characteristics and they are stable (which isn't always the case with variegation) then it would warrant a new cultivar name IMO.
Thank you for this very enlightening input, Ed. Really usefull!
I knew there was an International Code of Botanical Nomenclatura, as Dr. Braem in his works on Paphiopedilum often refers to it. But for growers the ICNCP, referred to by you, seems to be an equal, if not even more usefull ressource!
