kovachii culture; S/H, pH, and calcium?

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Rick, I'm sorry I've confused the matter concerning my previous post. It was my understanding that you believed the function the oyster shells provided was providing a phosphorus need by PK and calcium wasn't as important. So I was simply trying to design an experiment that I thought could determine what was more important to PK, calcium or phosphorus. I was trying to limit to a single variable, that being calcium or phosphorus, and keep the others the same. The light example was just an analogy. If you switch from one brand of white light to another and there is an improvement in plant growth, you may not know what change in what spectrum actually made a difference in plant growth. Only by limiting and then adjusting known variables can you define what is improving growing conditions.

My basic question concerns the growth of PK in S/H. Specifically with what I asked in my original post at the beginning of the thread.

I agree with what you said about humidity/airflow/light and temperature. Those however I know what people have recommended and am following. It is transferring kovachii from a bark oyster chip lime mix to a S/H with PrimeAgra medium; without adding the oyster chips or lime which would restrict air to the roots and the wicking ability of the PrimeAgra.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

Shayne
 
design an experiment that I thought could determine what was more important to PK, calcium or phosphorus. I was trying to limit to a single variable, that being calcium or phosphorus, and keep the others the same.
My basic question concerns the growth of PK in S/H. Specifically with what I asked in my original post at the beginning of the thread.

Shayne

With those conditions in mind..... Maybe try this:

3 groups.

Group 1 PA no special prep, standard setup (control)
Group 2 PA washed in phosphoric acid. MSU plus a phosphous amendment(Maybe potassium phosphate).
Group 3 PA washed in strong lime (CaOH) solution. MSU plus a bit of CaCl2.

After the washes the PA will need to be rinsed to get them close to neutral pH again.

For statistical significance you probably need 6 or more plants in each group.

pH should be around 7 for all groups. ( I looked up the Harold Koopowitz article in OD, and the soil pH around the roots of PK was high 6's to low 7's).

Do you have the 18 some odd PK to trial?
 
Rick,

That does look like a good experiment. However, I don't have 18 PKs so I guess it won't be me that will be running the experiment. I only have one and I've only had it about 4 weeks. From searching this thread it looks like Lance has given a lot of information concerning PK and S/H and I had hoped he would have chimed in with some information but he must be busy.

I've been keeping my pH in the 7s and it seems to be taking to the PA pretty good so far. I used a rooting hormone when first transfering to S/H with no MSU. Every week I water it I decrease the rooting hormone by half and increase the amount of MSU by doubling it. I started adding MSU the second week at 1/8 teaspoon. I'm recording the TDS and pH and I think I will hang out at just under 300 tds total and keep the pH in the 7s.

So far it seems to be doing well and growing each week so maybe I don't need to worry about the oyster shell and what it is doing at all. But I want to know what to do if things start to go downhill. Especially if it happens quickly.

Shayne
 
Shayne, Lance lives part-time in Peru and is sometimes unavailable. He may be there now. It may be better to PM or e-mail him.
 
Thanks Candace that is good to know. I did email him first with the questions privately and then again letting him know I started this thread as he suggested. So I will just wait until he has time to answer. He did say in his first email the oyster shell serves several purposes and promotes better growth in kovachii for several possible reasons. He also said to water the plants daily in leca at least until they have grown some new roots. I think he wanted to go into greater detail in the forum section so others could be helped by the information.

Shayne
 
Sorry for the long delay with answers, I will try to catch up...

Hello All,
OK, I noticed that your newer pictures have the crushed oyster shells on the top whereas your older pictures did not. Are your older kovachii from 06 still alive? Did you add oyster shells to them also? Or do you not need to after they reach a certain size?

Yes all of my kovachiis are still alive.
I have added oyster shell or crushed limestone to all kovachii.
I think kovachii will benefit from limestone presence through all stages of growth. I will explain later on.

I emailed Ray and he thought there might be enough calcium in the MSU Pure water formula but wasn't sure. Do you add the oyster shells for additional calcium or to raise the pH? If it is for calcium can you just add a calcium supplement?

I added oyster shells to both add calcium and raise the pH. Also top dressing restricted the air flow through the media. Contrary to normal s/h practice this is what I wanted to do. The leca is to coarse for small seedlings unless they are top watered frequently or maintained in a very high humidity. With new seedlings the new roots come from the base of the plant which sits on top of the leca pebbles. The very surface of the coarse leca stays too dry to support a perfect environment for these delicate new emerging roots. By top dressing with oyster shell the moisture content of the media surface is increased and more humidity is maintained in the upper zone of the pot. This creates a better environment for the new "baby" roots.

I do not think the added Calcium from the oyster shell dissolving plays much of a role with kovachii. I did trials using additional Calcium Nitrate and the results were not dramatic. However kovachii does want more Calcium than MSU fertilizer provides.

That brings me to my biggest question that I hope you can answer. I've searched but can't find anything specific about pH of water and fertilizer solution and PrimeAgra. I can find the pH of the soil/medium kovachii naturally grows in (7.9), and I can find the pH of the rain water kovachii naturally gets (6-6.5). However, I don't know how to apply that to PrimeAgra. I understand the soil/medium will raise the pH of the water and I know kovachii likes more alkaline conditions whereas most other orchids need a slightly acidic environment to absorb nutrients.

Alfredo Manrique in Lima was kind enough to show me a bag of freshly collected soil from the root zone of a wild kovachii. The soil consisted of chunks of limestone and clay. NOT MOSS. The pH of the soil will be high. The flowing water will be direct rain water and the pH will be near neutral. So much rain falls in the habitat that the water does not have much chance to saturate with salts or minerals before it passed through the root zone. The roots need to be wet and the soil is not well aerated at all.

I'm assuming that PrimeAgra will not adjust the pH up or down so we can limit/focus just on our water fertilizer mix pH. Since I've read kovachii likes slightly alkaline conditions could I/do you adjust the pH between 7-7.9? But then if so does this restrict the plant in being able to take in needed nutrients?

Do not assume PrimeAgra will not effect the pH. In all my sampling, the pH of PrimeAgra was constantly dropping low.
With my kovachii I have not seen pH to be super critical although higher is better than lower so I would not say kovachii must have an alkaline media.
Rather than trying to adjust the pH up I would (I did) add limestone to the media. Mix crushed limestone or oyster shell throughout the pot, not just as a top dressing.

My thinking is also that maybe in its natural habitat the alkaline soil balances the acid in the water and the sum is slightly acidic and it can still take in nutrients? Maybe the reason why people are adding oyster/calcium chips and lime is to overcome the acidity of the medium and then the fertilizer/water solution they are adding.

I think the roots of kovachii want to be in direct contact with wet limestone. There is likely a benefit for the root hairs to actually touch the mineral that goes beyond simple pH.

It seems like there are so many possible variables and since you have much more experience with kovachii in S/H maybe you have figured out all this pH stuff. I did read that someone asked you about this but you had (I think) left your pH meter in Peru and had not been testing pH.

I have since retrieved my pH meter. Normal low pH will not kill kovachii. High pH will not make kovachii grow faster. Don't get to preoccupied with pH, just keep it from dropping too low.

I also read that you were just using the MSU at 50 ppm Nitrogen and then going to 100 ppm when they got a bit bigger. However my own testing of MSU and pH is that even the pure formula drops the pH down to the 5/6 pH range, of course this is using 125 ppm nitrogen.

This is the problem with trying to replicate Nature. How to maintain a high media pH while applying an acidic fertilizer. There is no simple answer. I do not think you can even come close with true s/h culture. You need to constantly refresh the media with irrigation water. By washing the media with the nutrient solution frequently you will keep the pH from falling lower. But the you will be hydroponic and not simi hydroponic. But who cares what you call it.

Well, I hope this makes some sense, if it doesn't please ask for clarification. I guess to sum it up have you found the best adjusted pH value for your water and MSU RO formula mix that kovachii likes? Do you have to supplement calcium chips/oyster shells to the mix for older kovachii plants? If so is there a more elegant way/amount of adding calcium? Am I missing the point entirely concerning oyster shells and they are needed for another reason entirely.

Your questions make sense.
Mix limestone into your mix, this will in effect adjust your pH.
Add Calcium with periodic irrigations of Calcium Nitrate if you want to be elegant.
Water often and do not rely on wicking of the leca.
Keep the humidity of the soil surface high (wet).

Any other questions?

P.kovachii grows well in leca especially fresh out of the flask.
For several reasons I am now growing all my kovachii in a more traditional mix.
I'll try to get some current photos posted, a few plants are on their 3rd growth but they all grow slowly compared to hybrids.
 
For several reasons I am now growing all my kovachii in a more traditional mix.
I'll try to get some current photos posted, a few plants are on their 3rd growth but they all grow slowly compared to hybrids.

Care to share the reasons? And, please some updated photos!

Kyle
 
Thanks Lance!!!

That answers pretty much all my questions. My one kovachii is doing well. Mine was bigger than just out of flask. I had four roots at least 2-3 inches long and three leaves, leaf span of 6-7 inches. It's done really well so far with the newest leaf growing at least 3/4 of an inch, if not more, in the last two months. I'm not sure if that's fast or slow but it seems to be slowing down over the last few weeks. I water once a week and spray the top surface with water once a day, five to six times a week. I've been raising the pH of the fertilizer mixture with pH up to somewhere in the 7.x range after having added 1/2 tsp of MSU fertilizer with a total TDS of 342-400 range when added to the kovachii.

Thanks for the suggestion of calcium and calcium nitrate. I have calcium nitrate, how do you add calcium only and how much if using MSU? Is there a liquid supplement? After adding these two I should have most of the cultural requirements met. I hope!

I would also love to see pictures of your kovachii!
 
Interesting, but is in it a little bit complicated.... I’m growing my Pk without any problems in the same way I’m growing all others. I'musing my usual mix of Chilean sphagnum moss with perlite, bark an a bit a charcoal. They are thriving and growing very nicely. Some of them did already get very nice size and are showing some new growths.
Pk.jpg
 
Jean-Pierre,

WOW!! That one looks great. Maybe your right?!? I however, switched over to S/H and PA about a year ago. I have all my orchids in PA except a Disa, Dracula Vampira, and three others that are mounted. I still have extra PA left so for me it's a matter of not wanting to buy and go back to another medium. So you are correct I am making things more complicated because I'm trying to replicate your success in a S/H culture and medium.

How old are your PK, especially the one pictured? Did you start with a flask?

Shayne
 
Hi Shayne,
I did try S/H culture for some of my Phrags (mature plants and seedlings) and did try it for my Pk seedling too. I’m growing exclusively Phrags and water them 2 or 3 times a week. For that reason and with my environmental condition, except the fact than I was seing the roots systhems it makes no difference between S/H and growing them in moss. After a year and a half I return all my plants in moss. Sorry, I don’t understand what PA mean?

Yes I’ve got some flasks from Peruflora and that picture was taken last spring they are out of flask since 2 years now. Lots of them are showing a new growth, and one of them is showing me 4 new growths (2 big and 2 small one.)....
Hope it will flower within a year???
 
...an editorial comment:

THIS thread is what these forums are all about!!! No sustaining of misinformation, but the sharing of observation and science!

Thanks to all who have participated.
 
Thanks Lance!!!


Thanks for the suggestion of calcium and calcium nitrate. I have calcium nitrate, how do you add calcium only and how much if using MSU? Is there a liquid supplement? After adding these two I should have most of the cultural requirements met. I hope!

if you want to just add calcium to your fertilizer mix or with clear water, you can use calcium nitrate which is often labeled as 15.5-0-0 or just 15-0-0. You mix up in water just like any other fertilizer.

I did some math a few years back and determined that to get 100 ppm of calcium nitrate (which math I did was to get 100 ppm of nitrogen, not calcium) I would add 0.086 oz/gal or 0.52 teaspoons per gallon of water. I weighed tablespoons and teaspoons and then later found a dry conversion on a chart somewhere using a certain weight for a tablespoon of fertilizer and other chemicals like insecticides and fungicides; it was pretty close all around for measuring at small scale (I use a two-gallon spray tank at home or a five-gallon bucket for drenching). 200 ppm was double at 0.172 oz/gal or 1.04 tsp/gal. If you aren't sure, you can just measure with a tds meter to see how much the ppm is raised by adding a certain amount of the calcium nitrate (or other fertilizer).

If you were going to use msu but wanted to add some calcium nitrate, then use slightly less msu and add a bit of calcium nitrate; either that or just alternate waterings with your regular fertilizer and the calcium.

hope this helps,
charles
 
I have two Pk seedlings. One is doing well and is on it's second growth. The other has sat in 'suspended animation since I got it. Both are grown the same so I have no idea why one is doing fantastic and one isn't. They are potted in small coconut, perlite and treefern fibre with limestone added. Both are grown intermediate, phal light and kept wet. Here are a couple photos. The big one has great roots while the small one only has 'nubs'. (the lower leaf on the big one looks yellowish but it's not)
 

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I have two Pk seedlings. One is doing well and is on it's second growth. The other has sat in 'suspended animation since I got it. Both are grown the same so I have no idea why one is doing fantastic and one isn't. They are potted in small coconut, perlite and treefern fibre with limestone added. Both are grown intermediate, phal light and kept wet. Here are a couple photos. The big one has great roots while the small one only has 'nubs'. (the lower leaf on the big one looks yellowish but it's not)
Wendy, the small one is in a clay pot, so they're not grown the same maybe an aircone is in order?
 
It was in an aircone...I switched to clay in hopes that it might like that. Sorry; I should have put that in my first post.:eek:
 
To Jean-Pierre -- Yes, I hope you do get a flower soon. That would be cool. PA is just an abbreviation for PrimeAgra a type of s/h medium.

To Charles -- Thanks for the information, that really, really helps me out. I think I'm going to try a bit less msu and add a bit of calcium nitrate. Is there any symptoms/signs to watch for that the plant is getting too much nitrogen, since it will be getting the nitrogen from the msu and the nitrogen from the calcium nitrate? I'm thinking it will be fine but I think it's always good to try and notice changes before things go too wrong.

Shayne
 
To Jean-Pierre -- Yes, I hope you do get a flower soon. That would be cool. PA is just an abbreviation for PrimeAgra a type of s/h medium.

To Charles -- Thanks for the information, that really, really helps me out. I think I'm going to try a bit less msu and add a bit of calcium nitrate. Is there any symptoms/signs to watch for that the plant is getting too much nitrogen, since it will be getting the nitrogen from the msu and the nitrogen from the calcium nitrate? I'm thinking it will be fine but I think it's always good to try and notice changes before things go too wrong.

Shayne

Hi Shayne, thanks I didn't what was PA....
Ok about fertiliser…
I’m mainly use fish emulsion, and always put a spoon of meal bone on the top of my pots also.
But as chemical, I’m using Peter’s 13-2-13 with 6% ca and 3% Mg. This fertiliser is made especially to grow in peat moos because it is very poor in nutriments.... And I’m growing all my plants in moss... It almost the same thing as MSU but much more cheaply, I’m paying 35$ for 25 pounds....

PPM pencil is very good to know what is the concentration of total salt dissolve in the water but not exactly represent the plants need.
If you are using rain water or r-osmose it is much more easyer to figure out the needs.

In horticulture, when we are saying than the plant need 100 or 150 PPM it is mean of N but you can calculate it for any chemical element too...
The way to calculate it is:

PPM x volume = gr (volume is what you want to get)
N% x 10

If I’m using my 13-2-13 (N-P-K) and if you want 100 PPM of N you take the 13 N

100 PPM x 100 lt = 76 grams of 13-2-13 to get 100 PPM
13 %N x 10

But if you are looking at the PPM pencil it could be at 320 PPM of total dissolve salt... But 100 PPM of N what's the plant need...
It is that why it is always important to use pure water specially in Phrags culture.
Plants need is N P K.... In moss and clay Ca and Mg but it is like us it is always good to have different sources of food... Not always the same...
Hope it help!
 

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