Judging Discussion

[tim]

good example - to the best of my knowledge canhii is not legal presently.

the requirement to produce paperwork with plants appears to disappear by gestalt - eventually it is "accepted" that enough plants are legally (?) in the trade to allow this restriction to be released. I would say that, as a judge, I would like to see papers for hangianum, vejvarutianum and coccineum and their hybrids before awarding them. As I'm sitting here, I know that there are lots of legal helenae, gigantifolium, vietnamense...maybe others I can't think of. So there's really not too much on the list...and the list shrinks all the time.

I said "implicitly" for a reason - by awarding "illegal" species, there is an accepting of having these illegal things as acceptable.

As far as museums are concerned, in those cases where materials have been found to have been acquired illegally, ongoing lawsuits to return them are commonplace, as far as I know. I would love to hear examples to the contrary, and again other examples of organizations accepting illegal items.

If you are interested in all this, why don't you come to the northeast business meeting judging session on the 13th - it's in southern Connecticut near you - I can forward the info on to you if you want. The reason I mention this is that the chairpeople of the region, because they attend JC meetings, would be able to thoroughly clarify some of these issues.

 

[Gcroz]

good example - to the best of my knowledge canhii is not legal presently.

the requirement to produce paperwork with plants appears to disappear by gestalt - eventually it is "accepted" that enough plants are legally (?) in the trade to allow this restriction to be released. I would say that, as a judge, I would like to see papers for hangianum, vejvarutianum and coccineum and their hybrids before awarding them. As I'm sitting here, I know that there are lots of legal helenae, gigantifolium, vietnamense...maybe others I can't think of. So there's really not too much on the list...and the list shrinks all the time.

I said "implicitly" for a reason - by awarding "illegal" species, there is an accepting of having these illegal things as acceptable.

As far as museums are concerned, in those cases where materials have been found to have been acquired illegally, ongoing lawsuits to return them are commonplace, as far as I know. I would love to hear examples to the contrary, and again other examples of organizations accepting illegal items.

If you are interested in all this, why don't you come to the northeast business meeting judging session on the 13th - it's in southern Connecticut near you - I can forward the info on to you if you want. The reason I mention this is that the chairpeople of the region, because they attend JC meetings, would be able to thoroughly clarify some of these issues.

Yes, I'd love to have the information regarding the session in Southern CT.

While off topic, one good example of a museum keeping improperly taken artifact is the British Museum having the Elgin Marbles. This has been an ongoing issue between Greece and the UK, and as with other artifacts stems from colonial era conflicts. Also, with enforcing "stolen history" laws, it takes an active step to push for the return. Many museums have extensive collections never seen by the public. If a country, or person, does not exert the claim perhaps sue to lack of knowledge of the items existence, then the items would stay in the museums, but the legal status of those items doesn't change.

One last example of illegal goods being accepted, and sold, are all the marijuana "dispensaries" in CA. While legal under state law, they are illegal under Federal law. Like with orchids, it would boil down to what most people would think are laws worth enforcing and laws which seem frivolous, orchids I believe fall in the latter category.

But lets argue semantics since it is interesting and brings back my old Law School days! Judging a flower, or a plant, does not implicitly accept the plant as legal. It is merely an acknowledgement that the plant of award quality exists and makes no claims as to legality. It is similar to the plants that have been described, and the description published, the plant is known to exist- but that says nothing about the plant being legal for trade. If the AOS took possession of the plant for any length of time, that would then open the AOS to liability, but since possession of the plant remains with the owner/exhibiter that doesn't apply.

Think of it this way:

If a thief walks into a pawn shop to fence stolen goods and the shop owner looks at them and determines they are/may be stolen.

1. If the shop owner merely identifies for the thief what they are, ie a diamond ring, a Picasso, etc. and gives them back refusing to purchase them, he has not taken possession. He has merely identified the items for what they are (some states place a burden on the owner to report but that is a different situation).

2. If that owner accepts them and takes active possession, or even constructive possession, knowing them to be what they are, then he may be criminally liable. Liability may even extend if he accepts them and immediately calls police to notify them of the stolen goods.

 

[Gcroz]

I should also add, as with museums, there exists a lot of "nod,nod/ wink, wink" in the orchid community. A good example, and I'm currently reading the tale, is with kovachii in "Scent of Scandal". Good book if you haven't read it yet and I would definitely recommend it!

 

[NYEric]

For my own curiosity, has Paph. canhii been imported legally? I think it is a neat flower and I'd definitely like to get one if they are legal.

Imported, yes. legally, not so much. :evil:

 

[Gcroz]

Imported, yes. legally, not so much. :evil:

No doubt!:evil:

 

[mormodes]

I should also add, as with museums, there exists a lot of "nod,nod/ wink, wink" in the orchid community. A good example, and I'm currently reading the tale, is with kovachii in "Scent of Scandal". Good book if you haven't read it yet and I would definitely recommend it!

I've been thinking the Pk affair really put the kibosh on developing what is a very beautiful orchid. Here in the US there are only a handful of clones (or DNA) to work with. We see Pk and its hybrids rarely at shows. There are 2 AOS awards AFAIK on Pk, one of which is from Peru, right? I had intended on looking at the record for Phrag besseae. How long did it take for its first AOS award? (An FCC IIRC) How long after its discovery for the first hybrids to hit the market? I bet not a decade. You may say that it took a while to learn how to raise Pk, but I'll bet the vendors here will say 'no' to that. I think Decker wrote an article in 'Orchids' 2-3 years after his access to the plant saying he had its culture dialed in. So where are they all? Where are all the pretty Pks and progeny? We hearalded the arrival of besseae whereas kovachii has landed with a [thud]. Almost like no one wants to touch it with a 10-ft pole. Because of the paperwork/documentation involved? Why bother with such a troublesome plant when there are easier one's to make a living from?

I have more questions than answers and all comments here are my own opinions. As always I'm probably wrong.

 

[Gcroz]

I've been thinking the Pk affair really put the kibosh on developing what is a very beautiful orchid. Here in the US there are only a handful of clones (or DNA) to work with. We see Pk and its hybrids rarely at shows. There are 2 AOS awards AFAIK on Pk, one of which is from Peru, right? I had intended on looking at the record for Phrag besseae. How long did it take for its first AOS award? (An FCC IIRC) How long after its discovery for the first hybrids to hit the market? I bet not a decade. You may say that it took a while to learn how to raise Pk, but I'll bet the vendors here will say 'no' to that. I think Decker wrote an article in 'Orchids' 2-3 years after his access to the plant saying he had its culture dialed in. So where are they all? Where are all the pretty Pks and progeny? We hearalded the arrival of besseae whereas kovachii has landed with a [thud]. Almost like no one wants to touch it with a 10-ft pole. Because of the paperwork/documentation involved? Why bother with such a troublesome plant when there are easier one's to make a living from?

I have more questions than answers and all comments here are my own opinions. As always I'm probably wrong.

Interesting point! Tim, you were at the NHOS show this past February, was there any discussion regarding judging of the PK and the PK hybrids that were in displays? I can't comment on what Mormodes says, because I just don't know. But there seems to be a small number of awards for PK and its hybrids. But then again, perceptions can be wrong!

Funny thing is, there have been some exceptional PK photos posted on this site by Dr. Orchid. Have those plants been judged?

 

[littlefrog]

Heh... I don't think kovachii has landed with a thud. When I was working up a talk for the local center, it seemed like half of the recent awards to phragmipedium over the last couple years were to kovachii hybrids. I'd have to dig up that talk to get you actual numbers, but it is impressive. Not the species itself, but its progeny. And I believe Orchids Ltd. had at least one kovachii awarded recently.


I myself received one of the very first awards to a kovachii hybrid. And I know it was legal... One plant out of the batch grew like lightning unleashed and went from tiny to bloom in something like 8 months. And I've gotten a subsequent award to a different cross (x schlimii).

 

[NYEric]

I've seen a lot of Pk hybrids at Glen's place and H.P's. The first bunch, that were crossed in Peru, had limited besseae hybrids to be crossed with. Now that we're getting blooming sized Pk and gen 2 hybrids I think we'll see them take off.

 

[Gcroz]

I've seen a lot of Pk hybrids at Glen's place and H.P's. The first bunch, that were crossed in Peru, had limited besseae hybrids to be crossed with. Now that we're getting blooming sized Pk and gen 2 hybrids I think we'll see them take off.

Cheers to that. Glen told me part of the problem was the lack of hybrids in Peru to choose from, hence the combinations that were made. But, I do feel that Suzanne Decker and Fritz Schomburg are some of the nicest hybrids I've seen!

 

[mormodes]

OK I stand corrected. In the same time frame - the 1st 10 years - besseae had far fewer AOS awards and hybrids. I guess 2 things are happening 1) its too soon for these to grow up and 2) they seem to be geographically locallized. That is to say they ain't in California, LOL!! Also the hybrids are getting the AOS awards. Not the species. Another interesting factoid. In the USA. I'm not talking about the rest of the world. I have 6-7 of these (1 Pk itself and the rest various hybrids) and with my poor skills they are taking their own sweet time to grow. None of which were purchased from California vendors. Rather weird considering the size of the state and its economy. In real life I've probably seen 3-4 of these hybrids in shows. I've never seen a real Pk flower.

 

[li'l frog]

Orchids, Ltd had two Phrag kovachii (peruvianum) awarded earlier this year, one in Minn -- 'Moyobamba' and AM, ns 18.8, and one in Madison, 'Purple Cow' AM, ns 18.0. Thought Dr. Orchid may have posted pics of these.

Hybrids so far, except Fritz Schomburg and Haley Decker, are not quite as expected. They are generally below the geometric mean for size, and the color and shape of kovachii are not showing through. Yet. Some of them are quite nice, and have been awarded.

 

[mormodes]

Orchids, Ltd had two Phrag kovachii (peruvianum) awarded earlier this year, one in Minn -- 'Moyobamba' and AM, ns 18.8, and one in Madison, 'Purple Cow' AM, ns 18.0. Thought Dr. Orchid may have posted pics of these.

Hybrids so far, except Fritz Schomburg and Haley Decker, are not quite as expected. They are generally below the geometric mean for size, and the color and shape of kovachii are not showing through. Yet. Some of them are quite nice, and have been awarded.

Thanks Rob. I always thought the kovachii parent heightened or intensified the color of the opposite parent - hence a pinker pink, etc. Of course I'm only going by what photos I've seen online. Yes? No?

 

[slippertalker]

From my experience kovachii strongly increases flower size and usually adds petals that waffle as they age. The color is more of a reflection of the other parent unless species like schlimii are involved. The hybrids are quite strong growers and have impressive inflorescences, so kovachii does positively add vigor. The back crosses to kovachii from the primary crosses should be quite good.

 

[Gcroz]

Ok, to move this thread in another direction, since the previous topics seem to be discussed out, let me pose a question or three:

1. Since we have Orchid Wiz and AQ, we have availability to photos of plants and awarded plants to be able to compare to our own, should we desire to seek an award. Due two the subjective nature of judging, many times making a comparison to awarded plants from centers other than the one we frequent, misleads as to the quality of our plant. Hypothetically, if our plant was denied an award, yet appeared to be superior to an awarded plant from another center, there could be a feeling of confusion. How can we as "customers" of centers become better judges of our plants with the resources available?

2. How can judges at these centers explain how to select our plants for judging based on AOS criteria and with the available resources in order to maximize their time and awards to "customers?"

3. How can the resources available be improved to aid everyone involved in the judging process?

Where I'm coming from: I personally have my own process for selecting plants to bring to judging, which includes a review of AQ and Orchid Wiz photos. However, in many cases my selections have failed to make the grade. I admit to occasional feelings of frustration when my plant "appears" to be superior to another awarded plant, but that frustration really derives from not feeling I have any concrete way of evaluating the potential plant. This feeling of frustration is aggravated by having an admitted pecuniary interest in my plants getting awards.

Let it also be said, that I do understand that judging is subjective and there may be no easy answer. I'd like to learn as much as possible about how to select plants for entry into the judging process.

Let's discuss

 

[NYEric]

My humble recommendation would be to pre-screen your plants regarding bloom count and size and plant condition. If it is similar or superior bring it to judging. "You have to be in it to win it!"

 

[Gcroz]

My humble recommendation would be to pre-screen your plants regarding bloom count and size and plant condition. If it is similar or superior bring it to judging. "You have to be in it to win it!"

Thanks Eric,

I do these things as part of my "process." I guess I should have clarified, that I'm particularly interested in learning more about flower quality suggestions. As it stands now, I do attend judging as often as I can, but recently have not had any flowers worthy (in my mind) of judging. Maybe I'm too selective, but with work and a 4 hour round trip drive, I feel I need to be sure of the flower. And you're right, "you can't win if you don't play," but knowing as much about the process and criteria helps your chances a lot, at least in my experience.

On a lighter note... is it just me or do flowers seem to be perfect in between judging sessions and then on the day they are set to "perform", there always seems to be an issue?

 

[slippertalker]

My answer is to base your decision on whether to bring the plant in or not on the existing record, especially the more recent awards. If you think it is good, just bring it in........If it is awarded or not, have the judges give you feedback on the merits or demerits of the plant so you can figure what the basis of their decision is. Also, ask to be included as an observer in the judging teams (as long as it isn't your plant).

My experience is that judges like to see a lot of plants, period. The more plant material they see, the more accurate their judgements.

 

[Gcroz]

My answer is to base your decision on whether to bring the plant in or not on the existing record, especially the more recent awards. If you think it is good, just bring it in........If it is awarded or not, have the judges give you feedback on the merits or demerits of the plant so you can figure what the basis of their decision is. Also, ask to be included as an observer in the judging teams (as long as it isn't your plant).

My experience is that judges like to see a lot of plants, period. The more plant material they see, the more accurate their judgements.

Thanks. More interesting than sitting in the audience. Sounds like fun too!

 

[Rick]

Thanks. More interesting than sitting in the audience. Sounds like fun too!

Yes, it's important to keep it fun. Most of us got into this hobby for the pleasure of growing cool/pretty flowers and it's too easy to take it personally if your "judged" flower is deemed not award-able. Award or not, you still have the flower, and it looks the same regardless of the outcome of a judging.

But if you are going to go for the awards, its important to develop a report with the judges and get that feedback on what they're looking for beyond the old records. Most of the "rejections" I've experienced is that the flower is just too much like all the previous awarded plants. It just didn't stand out from the crowd.

For a more specific question, does your judging center look at plants under natural sunlight, high quality artificial light, or just standard room lighting?

The center/judges I frequent makes a big point of taking plants outside to see what they look like in good sunlight. So in some cases, the plant could be at the mercy of cloudy or cold weather for the judges to get that "good look".