insigne x armeniacum

[Drorchid]

I have to agree with Rod on this one. If you want to breed for yellow complex Paph's, instead of using this villosum x armeniacum cross I would start out with crossing armeniacum onto a good green or chartreuse complex. An example of that is Paph. Yellowstone (= armeniacum x Elfstone). Surprisingly this cross had huge flowers that were almost pure yellow in color. The flower shape wasn't the best, but due to the Elfstone parent, a fast improvement of villosum x armeniacum.

Paph. Yellowstone 'Gold Nuggit':

To my surprise this plant was fertile, and I was able to cross it onto a Paph. Pacific Shamrock (one of our most yellow complex Paphs), and now have some seedlings growing in the greenhouse. Hopefully they will still be as yellow as the Yellowstone parent, but have a better shape.

Paph. Pacific Shamrock:

Robert

 

[TyroneGenade]

A very good question. Putting pollen onto a well rounded complex would be a terrible step backwards even if you wanted that rich armeniacum color in it...
My first step would be something like Paph Gege Hughes or Winston Churchill "Redoubtable"...

The above contradicts itself.

Well spotted. If I took the time to read what I write (after a cup of coffee) I may have seen it to.

To clarify my confusticated train of thought, the insigne x armeniacum onto a complex would be a step backwards. My reasoning for going to WC "Redoubtable" or Gege Hughes (retrospect one of its parents would be better) was to improve shape.

Robert's Yellowstone is stunning but is still very armeniacum in shape. WC is a good breeder for shape, as is Hellas (Gege's mommy) so we come very much closer to the desired product than if one went to villosum and then onto something more complex...

While I like a full yellow I also like other colors and I feel a rich red or spotting over a yellow back ground (as what might occur with a WC cross) would be very nice. Having the one dose of insigne in it already means that (1) we have genes for color and pattern lurking there and (2) the cross is more likely to take onto WC or some other insigne-rich complex. (3) This also makes it more likely that the (IxA)xWC cross will take onto something else. Fertility is a serious concern.

Robert, that Yellowstone of yours is really super. It is very far from a "step backwards" in complex breeder and 18 cm is more than impressive. Do you think this is just very good luck or are we looking at the "armeniacum effect" on complexes?

Thanks for the photos.

 

[Roy]

Tyrone, having read Roberts post and looked at the pics, you must remember that a pure P. armeniacum was used. It doesn't have the petal problem that the i x a has. Its basically flat and is less likely to distort the petals when used with a complex hybrid. Rose suggested P. villosum which I agreed with and still believe it to be a better option as the petals will line up better or be less noticeable in the cross ie more acceptable flowers. From there, the introduction of a more full shaped parent could be used. As you say though, fertility is the question. If you do use it, make the cross both ways. Sometimes the flower may be sterile and the pollen be fertile & Vice versa.

 

[TyroneGenade]

Hi Roy,

I now understand your point. Villosum would be better for color as well. I guess the i x a is a dead end after all. Glad it wasn't mine.

I do have an armeniacum though and look forward to flowering it. I do have some interesting cross options but it depends on how board I am.

 

[PaphMadMan]

I would consider a different line of breeding, back to armeniacum or another armenicum hybrid. Bring some of this texture and shine to a more armeniacum flower. Might take more than one generation, but any breeding program that isn't looking ahead is going nowhere.

 

[SlipperFan]

Wow -- the first one's color is scrumptious.

 

[TyroneGenade]

I now understand your point. Villosum would be better for color as well. I guess the i x a is a dead end after all. Glad it wasn't mine.

In light of http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20037 I take the above statement back. If one takes a look at Wössner Vollmond (niveum x armeniacum), the yellow is dominant over the white of the niveum much like the pink of the henryanum dominates the white of the Little Bright Eyes cross. I don't like the armeniacum "big ears" petals or the "big nose" pouch. This line of breeding, into section Paphiopedilum, could be a good way to get very elegant looking yellows or whites. This little insigne x armeniacum could make for some very interesting experiments.

 

[NYEric]

. Surprisingly this cross had huge flowers that were almost pure yellow in color. The flower shape wasn't the best, but due to the Elfstone parent, a fast improvement of villosum x armeniacum.

Paph. Yellowstone 'Gold Nuggit':

Robert

Eric likes Paph flowers that are not waxy! You must send this to him, You must send this to him! You must send this to him! :crazy:

 

[labskaus]

I don't think this cross (insigne x armeniacum) was a waste of time at all. It's been worth the effort just for this discussion so far:wink:

I haven't seen this hybrid before, but I believe it is one of the primaries that just have to be made, otherwise you'll never know what they're worth.

Breeding-wise, I'm more with Tennis than with Tyrone, I wouldn't use this route to incorporate amreniacum into complex hybrids.

Look at pictures of Paph Sunny Ruriko to get an idea of what you might get from armeniacum x Gege Hughes.
Look at Paph British Army to get an idea what a cross with a spotted complex would look like.

Looking at the latter, I would assume that insigne f. sanderae has been used in the cross that is topic of this thread. Now I'd love to see how the spots of the normal form, of exul or even henryanum would come thru when crossed with armeniacum.

 

[toddybear]

Better than I thought it would be.

 

[Bolero]

Yes very interesting and the bloom is much better than I would have imagined.