HINI Swine Flu

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Hey, Piggy Piggy,
Up in the air,
With a cough and a sneeze,
You fly everywhere...

Vaccines are, in my cynical opinion, the wrong what to deal with this new irritation. Closing schools is the best and cheapest way forward. Schools are breeding grounds for disease, particularly of the viral kind. The high density conditions favor the virus which can infect the child at the desk next door the fastest, i.e. it favors the most virulent virus. If you shut down the schools then the least virulent virus is favored, i.e. the one which causes a low-level but persistent infection. In essence, you breed an attenuated strain which is less dangerous.

Here in South Africa the H1N1 virus arrived just before the winter school vacation. The virus was rampant before the holidays but now after the holidays it is hardly mentioned in polite conversation. You just can't beat a little quarantine to sort out a virus.
 
I got my seasonal flu shot last weekend, but it will be sometime before I can get the H1N1 vaccination (and I will). The government has closed the mass clinics in our province until they can figure out a way to distribute the vaccines appropriately, ie. to the high risk people first. The lines ups for the clinics when they opened last week were so long that they cut them off at 10 AM. People here are ready to lynch the health authorities for screwing up the roll out of the vaccination process.
 
.... This virus is constantly changing it's surface antigens that's why you need a flu shot each year. Why give this virus,H1N1 a chance to change more? The more people vaccinated the fewer host available for this virus to grow and change in. We don't need antiviral drug resistant Influenza bugs floating about killing more. Think about this, you catch the flu (H1N1) you're out for week coughing, sneezing and you get over it. While you were coughing and sneezing where did all those bugs go? Those bugs could end up in your neighbor's kids, a kid down the street, across town? I just saying the more people vaccinated the fewer chances of little kids catching it and dying because of it.
At this point in time I will not get a seasonal flu shot, but have been straddling the fence on the H1N1. Rick you make some good points, but it's leading me to more questions. Rick, I should say, I don't mean to put you on the spot, others can certainly chime in but that's what 29 years in the field does for you! Here goes ....
Why does a virus mutate? It's my understanding that it's for survival & it usually makes the virus weaker, but we're in the age of the opposite happening, the superviruses are here & have been. So wouldn't the more people being vaccinated also encourage this virus to mutate & thus become stronger?
Lanmark gave some wonderful advice "It's best to be well-informed before making your decision. That doesn't mean listening to talk radio show hosts or blindly accepting what your government or anyone else says. It means taking the time to look at legitimate websites showing legitimate research results, seeking out accurate information, learning the facts and discussing things with a doctor you trust." but it makes me wonder how many Drs. actually fully read the inserts that come with all the vaccines & meds that they prescribe, do they really know all the contraindications? ... rather unlikely. Are the drug companies upfront? I'm sorry but they're only telling us a part of it. Now we need to trust these sources? It's really difficult to seek out accurate info. I have a friend, who has a friend that is tops in the field of immunology. When she was asked what her opinion was on H1N1 ....... if she made the comments about her true feelings, she would lose her job!
 
The only "superviruses" are the ones newly introduced to the human population, to which we have no immunity..Ebola, Marburg, HIV. All evolved in animals before making the jump to humans...in many cases habitat destruction and intrusion of people and their animals into new areas has created the chance for the viruses to jump. In terms of the flu, the last "supervirus" was the 1918 "Spanish"flu...which has contributed some genes to the H1N1 strain, even though its more closely related to bird flu. The great fear is that a similar flu will reappear, hence the inordinate (and to me, misplaced) panic over H1N1. The real concern, in terms of medical treatments stimulating superbugs, are the antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria, like MRSA. This is a direct consequence of overuse of antibiotics in medicine and agriculture. Viruses mutate, and probably recruit new genes as they reproduce in our cells ...but bacteria can exchange genes even with unrelated species, and the prevalence of antibiotics in all bacterial environments is a powerful selecting agent for resistance. Take care, Eric
 
While you were coughing and sneezing where did all those bugs go? Those bugs could end up in your neighbor's kids, a kid down the street, across town? I just saying the more people vaccinated the fewer chances of little kids catching it and dying because of it.
I disagree. We have never had the flu. We don't put our fingers in our mouths, pick our nose, rub our eyes w/o keeping hygiene in mind. We wash and are aware of the surrounding enviroment. As far as I'm concerned, we gave up our shots for 2 children that we don't even know their names. We have no offspring, and practice excellent personal hygiene. Perhaps this is a good time for parents to teach their kids about being sanitary. I am finding it difficult to understand how this is such a emergency, if so few are getting it. Never had flu as a kid.
 
not dealing with facts here so please do not jump me....both of my nieces received flu shots at school...both of them as well as a large percentage of the kids at the school became ill.....now the youngest of the two has swine flu.....according to my sister-in-law they were vacinated for swine flu......the older niece was out for almost 2 weeks but not sure she was tested for swine flu so the general feeling is that she just had the flu or a flu like reaction to the vacination.....No flu shot for me

Todd
 
In my opinion, the more stuff that is pumped into our bodies will only weaken our own natural resistance over time. Maybe I am wrong but it seems logical to me.
 
Rose, It doesn't happen quite this way "So wouldn't the more people being vaccinated also encourage this virus to mutate & thus become stronger?" Look at the small pox virus, It was suppose to be wiped out from the world because of a energetic vaccine program. Of course it's still out there in a few spots. Small pox would also make a great bioterrorist tool because very few young people have immunity to it, (That's another topic!) You could say the virus is getting weaker as it mutates but that's not exactly right. The virus is adapting to it's host. The host can still be miserable but not dead! No living organism wants to kill off it's food supply!
That's want happen to the first HIV stains. They were so virulent that the host die before the virus had a chance to spread.
You all remember the Bird Flu that hit Southern Asia a few years ago? That was a H5N1 flu virus crossing over to humans. Why was there such a big scare with this one? And it was contained, for now! It had a 50% kill ratio that's why. Humans hadn't been expose to such a large drift in surface antigens from a flu virus that we had no natural defense to it. The Influenza virus is one of the fastest spreading viruses we have combined with the ablitiy to mutate it's suface antigens can translate to serious population damage.
 
It's true that good nutrition, good rest and good hygiene go a long way toward promoting health and resistance to disease. For many of you this may be enough. It's good to remind ourselves that from 1918 to 1920 anywhere from 3% to 6% of the world's population died from infection by a variant of the H1N1 virus, and most of those victims were young healthy people with strong immune systems. I eat a healthy diet, get plenty of sleep and I'm nigh unto obsessive about washing my hands and not touching my face without washing my hands first or using an alchohol-based sanitizer product. I'm very aware of cross contamination as well. I even spray my mail with lysol just in case the mail carrier is sick :eek: but I've been terribly sick for the past couple of years. A bout with any kind of flu could easily put me six feet under.

Still, having never been exposed to the so-called swine flu virus in my lifetime, I'd much rather get my exposure to it via vaccination with dead viruses than from taking a sneeze in the face from an infected child. Pumping my arm full of dead viruses isn't the same as pumping my arm full of heroin. It won't make me sick. I might have an immune response, yes, but that is the whole purpose of the shot. It strengthens the immune system. It doesn't weaken it. I expect to feel a little sore and blah for a day or two after getting vaccinated. It's better than having my lungs dissolved by the living virus, although in reality, that actually happens to only a very few people who contract the H1N1 virus. There's a lot of hype out there and many people are panicked. Others are just the opposite. I'm somewhere in the middle. Concerned, yes. Panicked, no.

Do I trust the pharmaceutical companies wholeheartedly in everything they do? No, but the manufacturing process used for creating flu vaccine is not a secret. It's not something new. The only thing different about the swine flu vaccination is that the virus used to create it is new to most of us. Any physician should know and understand very well the basics of how flu vaccine is made and what it contains. If your physician doesn't know these things, I suggest finding another physician as fast as you can. Flu vaccine manufacturing is standardized and it is a well-documented and well-known process. It's not a mystery. It's not a government conspiracy. It's not big business out to get us. Most importantly, few if any ordinary citizens are being forced to get flu vaccinations of any kind. Everyone has a choice. Actually I don't have a choice since neither the vaccination for H1N1 nor for the seasonal flu has been made available to me yet. :p

Read about it. Inform yourselves. Learn. The flu vaccination isn't for everyone, but for many it can be lifesaving. Here's a good article which explains some basics including some information about the mutation of viruses. http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar..._and_the_flu_shot_make_an_informed.html?cat=5 Goldenrose, it doesn't sound to me as if mutation normally causes a virus to be weaker. It also seems to me that viruses will mutate whether or not vaccinations for them are in widespread use. Viruses simply mutate often. That's the nature of these tiny beasts. One thing I think it is important to know is that viruses can become resistant to antiviral drugs just as bacteria can become resistant to antibiotics. I'm already hearing rumors about Tamiflu resistance, but as far as I know, Relenza is still quite effective.
 
I disagree. We have never had the flu. We don't put our fingers in our mouths, pick our nose, rub our eyes w/o keeping hygiene in mind. We wash and are aware of the surrounding enviroment. As far as I'm concerned, we gave up our shots for 2 children that we don't even know their names. We have no offspring, and practice excellent personal hygiene. Perhaps this is a good time for parents to teach their kids about being sanitary. I am finding it difficult to understand how this is such a emergency, if so few are getting it. Never had flu as a kid.

not dealing with facts here so please do not jump me....both of my nieces received flu shots at school...both of them as well as a large percentage of the kids at the school became ill.....now the youngest of the two has swine flu.....according to my sister-in-law they were vacinated for swine flu......the older niece was out for almost 2 weeks but not sure she was tested for swine flu so the general feeling is that she just had the flu or a flu like reaction to the vacination.....No flu shot for me

Todd
Clark
You can be the most sanitary person in the world and hold the record in the Guinness book but it only takes you being expose to a mist of virus to come down with the flu. The virus is spread by aerisols created by coughing or sneezing and you did nothing to break your sanitary status except walk outside.

Todd, depending on where your sister-in-law lives, the time of the year the infection occured and the type of testing done determines if the girls have/had Swine flu. It takes about two weeks to get a good immune response to the flu after you had the vaccine. So if you're expose to the virus soon after the vaccination then, yes, you will likely get sick. Here in Houston, between April/May and the first of Oct if you came down with the flu, you were pretty much guarantied to have H1N1. Since the the first week or so of Oct we have started picking up Influenza B viruses from patients which is part of the seasonal flu. There are two types of Influenza, the highly mutigenic A strain and the B strain. In the vaccine there are three virues 2 strains of A and B virus. Whatever is going a round in the Southern hemisphere during their winter is what we make vaccine to for our upcoming winter. Then it is reverse, whatever our winter flu is, the southern half of the world is making vaccine to. H1N1 (swine) doesn't follow the rules. It can infect anytime of the year in any season. To ID H1N1 it takes a highly specialized test, PCR molecular testing to do that. These "Doc-in-a-box" doctor clinics can't do that. They may send it off for testing but I doubt it. They may do the quickie test, 15 minutes and you know flu A, B or negative Then they assume it's H1N1 if their quickie test is flu A positive.
 
my older niece got sick withing a week of being vacinated....my younger niece got sick about three weeks or so after the vacination....you are correct though in that they took her to the Dr. and were told I believe the same day that she tested positive for H1N1....the live here in IL and it was just this past week that my younger niece was diagnosed

Todd
 
The H1N1 vaccination was released in Australia the same week I headed over to Nepal. I asked the doctor about it and they told me that there hadn't been enough testing before its release. They advised me not to have it until more knowledge of its side effects were known. They told me they weren't prepared to have it themselves.

I always have an annual flu vaccination. Our workplace actually pays for it. I've never had the flu in my life. The flu vaccinations only cover a few of the common ones. It doesn't cover all flues. And people often mistake the common cold as the flu. The flu is way more serious. It kills thousands of people a year in Australia alone.

David
 
Do I trust the pharmaceutical companies wholeheartedly in everything they do? No, but the manufacturing process used for creating flu vaccine is not a secret. It's not something new. The only thing different about the swine flu vaccination is that the virus used to create it is new to most of us. Any physician should know and understand very well the basics of how flu vaccine is made and what it contains. If your physician doesn't know these things, I suggest finding another physician as fast as you can. Flu vaccine manufacturing is standardized and it is a well-documented and well-known process. It's not a mystery. It's not a government conspiracy. It's not big business out to get us. Most importantly, few if any ordinary citizens are being forced to get flu vaccinations of any kind. Everyone has a choice. Actually I don't have a choice since neither the vaccination for H1N1 nor for the seasonal flu has been made available to me yet. :p

Landmark has out it exactly how it is :) I must admit I need to smile everytime I read that there are not enough tests done to show the efficacy of this "new" vaccine :) and I am sure that if at the end some people who were vaccinated get the swine flu, the press will make a big shwo around it...

now some facts that most people forget or just ignore:

1.- Flu virus is extremely infectious, and although it is recommended as a good practice to keep good hygiene, this is also not a 100% warranty you will not be infected. A good health is more important in this case than washing your hands! Good nutrition and strong inmune system are the key! however, not yet 100%.
2.- Flu vaccine is effective only in about 60% of the population (keep this in mind, as you probably will belong to the 40% which does not get 100% inmunity!) Please do not blame the Pharma industry for this if you get the Flu even though you had a flu shot!! Blame your Phycisian for not telling you this!! :D
3.- Flu kills a couple of thousands people every year ("and nobody cares!" <- common argument given by people thinking of Swine Flu and tammiflu and Co as a "XXXX" conspiracy to reduce world population or making money) Swine Flu has killed just less than a couple of hundreds.... hhhmmm.. true, but needs to be seen in detail ;) If you see plain numbers, I agree totall with these statements. However, if you check percentages, we have a different story. At the very beginning, the Swine Flu was very aggresive and "deadly". If that virus train would have infected the same number of people infected every season with "Normal" Flu virus, we would have a couple of millions instead of a couple of thousands death cases. That's the reasons why the WHO was so alarmed, and everybody was running around to increase the production of Tamiflu and create the vaccine.
4.- The scenario changed within a short time, but the risk is still very high that we come back to the original one. As has been already mentioned here, flu virus mutate a lot, and this is teh reason why youcan get the Flu every year. You do not have a new virus species every year, but a variation of the previous ones. Swine Flu virus mutated very quick, and became a lot less aggressive and almost no lethal (I can testify of 5 confirmed cases in my office, which went with swine flu but even milder than normal flu, almost like a regular cold!) What doe sthis all mean? ONLY, that we have had more time to get ready... same wway as the virus mutated to become less aggressive, it can mutate to become even more aggressive. Even worst, we still have some strains of avian flu "fyling" around. Ifthis two viruses get mixed, then we have a big BIG problem here, as the avian virus is extremely aggressive and lethal (remember the spanish Flu, which has been confirmed long ago to be avian flu)
5.- Pharmaceuticals, Secondary Effects and Press... All, and I say ALL, medicines have secondary effects, and there is no, I say NO, medicine, which provides 100% protection! This is a fact, which cannot be denied. All medicines are tested before the are authorized by Health Authorities to go into the market. The rules are very strict, the test are strongly regulated, and this applies to almost everywhere in the world (some countries don't have these rules, but all big Pharma companies work under these rules, otherwise tehy will not be allowed to launch their product in the most important markets) In the case of USA, it is the FDA who decideds which product is allowed and which not. Authorization for marketing is given after putting on the balance Benefits Vs. Risk.
You would probably be surprised to know that some over the counter products you buy are even more lethal than those "finger pointed" by the press as dangerous. It all depends on the coverage given by the press to specific events. The swine Flu is the current "Gold mine" for yellow press: "Not enough tests done"; "Adjuvants used are deadly"; "Guvernamental Conspiration to reduce world population"; "BIG business between Goverment and Pharma Companies", and so on.... easy, people are not well informed about Swine Flu, and are extremelly afraid of it. Anything new in the press, sells! And we must accept, that humans are sensationalists by nature! news like "100000000000 people save by Tamiflu" are much less interesting than "YOUR Neighbour died after taking Tamiflu and 3 bottles of Tequila!" :D For example, and going to extrems, did you know that a lot of people die or have very serious adverse events after taking Aspirin or acetaminophen (Paracetamol) but almost not a single case is ever covered by the press (same for many of the anti-depressive and pain killers sold over the counter in the USA), but the few cases of people dying after taking Ecstasy are almost always covered by the press? Note: I am not saying that Ecstasy is not dangerous! I am giving an example of over devilization of a prodcut by the press!!

Final Note: if someone wants to know... yes... I work for one of the Pharmas involved in the swine flu pandemia control... and no, I do not use all our products, have never taken Tamiflu and will also not get the Swine Flu shot - even though I had the regular flu shot this year. I do not believe in world conspiracy to reduce the world population (as the half known none in Spain said in her video) and do agree that some people have used the pandemia to make more money (business is busines and that rules the world!), but I do not fingerpoint at any of the pharma companies involved, as most of them have been over criminalized by the press in this case: Press releases the bad side ofthe story more often than teh good side (No, I am not saying Pharma Companies are angels! but also not devils!)
 
I'm very skeptical about all this pandemic stuff. I've watched all the hype about SARS end in nothing more spectacular than a handful of out breaks... I've seen the bird flu scare and nothing come of it other than the decimation of the poultry industry in a few countries. So far H1N1 hasn't lived up to the hysteria either...

I have never gotten any flu shots. In 31 years I have had flue 5 times. 2 of those 5 times was in 2006 and 2007 when I was stressed out teaching high school science. My diet was pretty shoddy too. This year I haven't had the flu nor a cold. I'm inclined to think the vitamins and etc I get in by using Herbalife but thats not very scientific. Based on 30+ years of living experience flu is simply a very rare event for me. This is in part, I believe, because I enjoy a healthy diet with lots of vitamin C and essential fatty acids (both very important for immune system function) and regular moderate exercise. The virtues of a healthy diet and moderate exercise are better than any flu vaccine. Flu deaths normally piggy-back in on other healthy conditions such as heart/cardio vascular disease. This tends to be the result of lack of exercise and poor diet (i.e. you are or were fat).

Of course, here in Sunny South Africa the majority of the population do not enjoy a healthy diet and also live at high density. In spite of about 60 H1N1 deaths (compared the 100s of normal flu fatalities this year) there was no epidemic even though hear in South Africa there were millions of people at high risk.

H1N1 is, in my opinion as a rational scientist with no monetary interest in H1N1 research, nothing to worry about.

To add wood on the fire of conspiracy theories:

Today any Professor will betray the truth for 100 marks. It would be something unusual if he were only willing to do it for 1000 marks.

Otto Warburg to Hans Krebs in 1929 when a loaf of bread in Germany cost only 430 000 000 000 marks a few years before...
 
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I'm very skeptical about all this pandemic stuff. I've watched all the hype about SARS end in nothing more spectacular than a handful of out breaks... I've seen the bird flu scare and nothing come of it other than the decimation of the poultry industry in a few countries. So far H1N1 hasn't lived up to the hysteria either...

Tyrone, that's more or less for the sam ereasons I gave above. One said, hey people be aware and be ready in case this happens (as there is a chance this happens!), and teh press release (and from many bad informed peopel) will say: "AVIAN FLU will kill all of us soon!!!" Then everybody is waiting for the day of the final judgement to come in less than one week, it does not come, and people say that the first who raised the alert was a liar... If people would have read the advice of the scientific comunitiy, it would have been clear thatit was a "There is a risk ofthis to happen, we need to be aware of it and be prepared to act in case i thappens" instead of a "The KILLER Virus is here and waiting for you!!!". That was the message I use to send all my friends and family all the time... though, many of them did not listen to it anyway :D

Footnote: Avian Flu does not have the same press coverage as before (Swine Flu is currently more interesting ;)), but the risk is still there, as it was before... IMO, it is much much much better, that the press does not cover it anymore that often, so we can avoid that global paranoia we had a couple of years ago...


H1N1 is, in my opinion as a rational scientist with no monetary interest in H1N1 research, nothing to worry about.
Under the current status, I totally agree with you :D which means: The virus is not that lethal anymore; the risk of mutating to killer virus is there, but also not very probable; there is treatment in case you get the flu (OK, in some countries/regions, it is not easily available... but this is a different discussion too)

my message: enjoy the life as it is! ready!!

P.S.- I was ver yshocked as I read an article with recommendations for the parents and kids in the USA on how to behave during halloween: Don't let your kids eat these or those candys (some can not be washed others will destroy their teeth)! Wash all candies before your kids eat them (can be infected with swine flu virus!! <- what about other dieseases in former years?); have a bottle of desinfectant gel with you and use everytime before knocking at each door, and immediately after too (the door may be infected with swine flu virus!!)... C'mon...
 
Fortunately, we know a couple of families whose child has had H1N1. Kid gets sick, stays home from school, and nobody else in the family gets the flu.
I was on the CDC site last night-
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/

If I'm reading this correctly, of the nearly 25,000 cases so far for 2009, there have been 74 pediatric deaths.
Just a thought, how many parents mistake school for daycare, or are distracted and don't realize their child is sick.

Last paragraph.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,571008,00.html?test=latestnews
 
I just got word that my cousin's 7 year old son is being sent home from the hospital today. He and his 2 year old sister were admitted two days ago with high fevers and diagnoses of probable H1N1 infection. Both are being treated with Tamiflu. The 2 year old girl is still being treated with antibiotics for pneumonia as well, but she's expected to be discharged within a day or two. :)

Hopefully this whole H1N1 pandemic thing will settle down. Keeping things in perspective is important. I try my best to not overreact one way or the other. There's no point to getting all worried and stressed over it, but I don't want to be careless and ignore the situation entirely either. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I'm hoping for the best.

:wink:
 
My husband and I have been getting the flu shots for about 10 years. In all of those years, I remember getting the flu about once, and that could have been a bad cold. I tend my 5 month old granddaughter every afternoon, and I certainly wouldn't want her to get sick so we got the flu shot and the H1N1 vaccine. I watch and read the news quite regularly, and I haven't heard of anyone getting the flu from the shot. I have heard of about 125 children dying of the Swine flu since April. I don't want to take that chance with my granddaughter.
As far as being clean and sanitary, washing our hands etc., the opportunity to pick up germs is everywhere. How about handling money, pushing the grocery cart, opening a door. There are so many ways to get exposed that we don't think about.

On another note, how many orchid growers take extra care when they administer pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers and all of the other stuff that we expose ourselves too so we can have beautiful orchids. If you read the msds sheets on those, you probably wouldn't use any of them. What is a little flu shot in comparison to those.
 

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