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goldenrose
Guest
Interesting site, Baraboo is about an hour north of Madison.
Help with creating an area to grow Cypripedium
- Thread starter TheLorax
- Start date
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goldenrose
Guest
There are very few rules here!
Guess what I bought just a couple of days ago:
I love CP! I tried a bog garden a few years ago, tried picking hardy subjects, none made it. I had left a couple of pitchers in pots, in my GH. For winter we had a bonsai cold room, it was a min of 38. They wintered thru but lost them at some point during the summer. I had a ping for awhile too .......
looks like we can help each other out!
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Eric Muehlbauer
Guest
Mention away! We don't fear other sites here...knowledge is power, and the more the better...Take care, Eric
parvi_17
Well-Known Member
Well Cyp reginae and kentuckiense are quite easy, but arietinum I've heard is quite hard. Cyp. reginae likes lots of moisture and lots of nutrients; Cyp. kentuckiense likes a very sandy, acidic soil. Cyp. arietinum likes a nutrient-poor, sandy, acidic soil. All like dappled shade, though reginae can tolerate a little more sun. Choose an area that receives dappled shade all day, or morning sun, afternoon shade. Dig a hole 16" wide and 12" deep for each plant and plant the rhizomes shallow - about 4" deep. Good luck!
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Eric Muehlbauer
Guest
I am trying reginae again in NYC, with seedlings. Never had luck with mature plants, probably due to the heat here. My first 2 years with kentuckiense have been good...it came up this year twice the size it was last year, and I have high hope for blooms next year. I'd avoid arietinum, unless your summers are cool. I'm sure you can provide the bog conditions....Take care, Eric
SlipperFan
Addicted
Hi, TheLorax, and welcome.
I'm also in Zone 5, and last Fall I made a Cyp. bed. We have sandy/gravelly soil here, and I amended it with alot of pine duff & litter, and peat. I planted the Cyps there and covered the bed with a relatively thick layer of chopped Oak Leaves. I was pleased when they bloomed this Spring. I purchased them from the Vermont Lady Slipper Company.
When visiting Orchids Limited, just west of Minneapolis/St. Paul last week, Robert showed me their Cyp greenhouse. I'd say it is worth considering to talk to him about your desires.
I'm also in Zone 5, and last Fall I made a Cyp. bed. We have sandy/gravelly soil here, and I amended it with alot of pine duff & litter, and peat. I planted the Cyps there and covered the bed with a relatively thick layer of chopped Oak Leaves. I was pleased when they bloomed this Spring. I purchased them from the Vermont Lady Slipper Company.
When visiting Orchids Limited, just west of Minneapolis/St. Paul last week, Robert showed me their Cyp greenhouse. I'd say it is worth considering to talk to him about your desires.
TheLorax
Awardless studette
Be patient with me, I'm going to go for each one of you one at a time.
jediphrag- it wasn't Bluestem Farm but I have purchased plants from them before and they are an excellent nursery!
Heather- sounds as if you have the best gnat catchers on the market!
goldenrose- Dionaea muscipula is a southeastern US native. Our area can be somewhat harsh on them. I grow them from seed to use for educational programming for children but they can be overwintered outside in a created bog with a heavy layer of white pine needles to break the freeze thaw cycles. Most die because people don't realize they can't handle water from most taps. These plants co-evolved over thousands of years in nutrient deficient environments. Their roots are mostly for water uptake and to ground them in winds as they trap the nutrients they need to survive. They need to be watered with rain water, distilled water, or RO water. Another pitfall is the addition of non-rinsed sand to the medium. Too many heavy metals in sand based on my testing of what's available locally. As far as Sarracenia, those can be touchy too. I've been learning that in our area any sand added to the medium in container grown sarrs heats up too fast. You might want to try again using rinsed Canadian sphagnum and perlite. Stear clear of Darlingtonia. That one's really tricky for our area but if you want to try it, I can help you keep it alive. So you had a ping for a while, eh? I have to giggle at that one because I've had many orchids for a while. I kill orchids like you kill CPs. I kill them quite well I might add. I have some Mexican pings that need to be divided right now. I'll bring them along for you to play with when we meet in Madison. Don't worry if you kill them. I'll just replace them for you again. No need to trade anything either.
Eric Muehlbauer- the other site allows the mention of other sites too. Yes, I can provide bog conditions
I have a naturally occurring wetland as well as several small bogs and it is my intent to create a 3700 gallon bog here in the near future. I know exactly where I want it to go and I already have the liner. All I need is to learn how to use one of those hydraulic excavator things. They say I should be able to do it myself, I'm not so sure. I sat on one and about had heart failure. I can't afford to hire excavators. They wanted $3,500 to do the job. I can afford the rental of the equipment at under $1,000. I'm just afraid of falling in any hole I dig because they told me the bill to wince one out of a hole is around the same price as the rental. Cypripedium kentuckiense is the one Cyp I'd like to try that is making my knees shake. I'm pretty far north out of its native range so it's encouraging that you are having success with it.
parvi_17- Shame that C. arietinum is a toughie for so many because that is the one Cyp I thought I'd have the best chance at actually growing here companion planted with some of my Sarracenia that are in acid bogs. Best for me to try buying only one to see what happens. Thanks for mentioning they were so touchy, I'm really tired of taking the sink or swim approach with orchids.
SlipperFan- No shortage of oak leaves here! Idealistically, I'd like to get my hands on local genotype but if I can't, I generally go north for plant material rather than south. I will definitely contact your source for one or two species. Best to deal with people who others have had good experiences with. Thank you for mentioning him.
jediphrag- it wasn't Bluestem Farm but I have purchased plants from them before and they are an excellent nursery!
Heather- sounds as if you have the best gnat catchers on the market!
goldenrose- Dionaea muscipula is a southeastern US native. Our area can be somewhat harsh on them. I grow them from seed to use for educational programming for children but they can be overwintered outside in a created bog with a heavy layer of white pine needles to break the freeze thaw cycles. Most die because people don't realize they can't handle water from most taps. These plants co-evolved over thousands of years in nutrient deficient environments. Their roots are mostly for water uptake and to ground them in winds as they trap the nutrients they need to survive. They need to be watered with rain water, distilled water, or RO water. Another pitfall is the addition of non-rinsed sand to the medium. Too many heavy metals in sand based on my testing of what's available locally. As far as Sarracenia, those can be touchy too. I've been learning that in our area any sand added to the medium in container grown sarrs heats up too fast. You might want to try again using rinsed Canadian sphagnum and perlite. Stear clear of Darlingtonia. That one's really tricky for our area but if you want to try it, I can help you keep it alive. So you had a ping for a while, eh? I have to giggle at that one because I've had many orchids for a while. I kill orchids like you kill CPs. I kill them quite well I might add. I have some Mexican pings that need to be divided right now. I'll bring them along for you to play with when we meet in Madison. Don't worry if you kill them. I'll just replace them for you again. No need to trade anything either.
Eric Muehlbauer- the other site allows the mention of other sites too. Yes, I can provide bog conditions
I have a naturally occurring wetland as well as several small bogs and it is my intent to create a 3700 gallon bog here in the near future. I know exactly where I want it to go and I already have the liner. All I need is to learn how to use one of those hydraulic excavator things. They say I should be able to do it myself, I'm not so sure. I sat on one and about had heart failure. I can't afford to hire excavators. They wanted $3,500 to do the job. I can afford the rental of the equipment at under $1,000. I'm just afraid of falling in any hole I dig because they told me the bill to wince one out of a hole is around the same price as the rental. Cypripedium kentuckiense is the one Cyp I'd like to try that is making my knees shake. I'm pretty far north out of its native range so it's encouraging that you are having success with it. parvi_17- Shame that C. arietinum is a toughie for so many because that is the one Cyp I thought I'd have the best chance at actually growing here companion planted with some of my Sarracenia that are in acid bogs. Best for me to try buying only one to see what happens. Thanks for mentioning they were so touchy, I'm really tired of taking the sink or swim approach with orchids.
SlipperFan- No shortage of oak leaves here! Idealistically, I'd like to get my hands on local genotype but if I can't, I generally go north for plant material rather than south. I will definitely contact your source for one or two species. Best to deal with people who others have had good experiences with. Thank you for mentioning him.
NYEric
Well-Known Member
Welcome from NYC. There will be pests [and infections] on many plants you get from many sources; dealing with these is part of the process. Part of orchid growing should be a 'maintenance routine'. I spend part of each week going through my collection removing pests, dead leaves, checking for and treating infections, etc. I'm no 'expert' but I've killed enough orchids to know if you want a good collection you're going to get pests and you have to deal. There are lots more Cyps offered now than ever before. Orchids Ltd. has some nice offerings [Cyp. reginae alba, for example] but they're not the only source. There is a variety of small equipment, mini-bobcats, robotic diggers, etc. that you could probably learn to handle. I think you will need to put your bog in the shade as N.E. Illinois is one of the hottest places I've ever been. Good Luck.
TheLorax
Awardless studette
What I could really use would be an area to quarantine new plants. It would make things so much easier for me and would reduce the risk of losing other plants. I already kill more than my fair share of orchids because of inexperience and it sort of saddened me when I lost the orchid and other plants.
It is brutally hot and humid here in the summer. There are days when I am working outside that I go through one bottle of water after the next just to stay hydrated. These days it is so hot I can only go out from about 5:30am to 8am or so to water plants and again in the late evening. You are so right about the damaging effects of the sun here. I've got plants under shade cloth to try to help out. The new bog is going to receive dappled shade which should help but I could always add 70% shade cloth if my site is poorly chosen.
The hydraulic excavator seemed to be the best choice and it was about the same price as the others you mentioned. I looked at it and it appeared as if I could swivel the bucket to dump the removed soil into a rented pick up truck to get it off the property. Probably a dumb choice but I was looking at the hydraulic excavator as a means by which to avoid having to rent two pieces of equipment in addition to a pick up truck to remove what ever I dig out. One really big problem, all those hand and foot controls are what's making me real nervous. I hope you are right and I will be able to catch on otherwise my new bog will never exist and I want it really bad. I think I am going to need good luck for this one. My husband is thinking I've lost it by wanting to rent an excavator. He said I was going to end up in the hole but to go ahead and rent one if I had my heart dead set on a new bog. Now he made me have reservations. That's all I need after having been married this many years is to have him taking photos of me on a piece of equipment stuck down in a hole. I'd never live it down and he'd be looking at me and giggling and I'd know exactly what he was laughing at. Problem is that he wouldn't even need to say "I told you so".
It is brutally hot and humid here in the summer. There are days when I am working outside that I go through one bottle of water after the next just to stay hydrated. These days it is so hot I can only go out from about 5:30am to 8am or so to water plants and again in the late evening. You are so right about the damaging effects of the sun here. I've got plants under shade cloth to try to help out. The new bog is going to receive dappled shade which should help but I could always add 70% shade cloth if my site is poorly chosen.
The hydraulic excavator seemed to be the best choice and it was about the same price as the others you mentioned. I looked at it and it appeared as if I could swivel the bucket to dump the removed soil into a rented pick up truck to get it off the property. Probably a dumb choice but I was looking at the hydraulic excavator as a means by which to avoid having to rent two pieces of equipment in addition to a pick up truck to remove what ever I dig out. One really big problem, all those hand and foot controls are what's making me real nervous. I hope you are right and I will be able to catch on otherwise my new bog will never exist and I want it really bad. I think I am going to need good luck for this one. My husband is thinking I've lost it by wanting to rent an excavator. He said I was going to end up in the hole but to go ahead and rent one if I had my heart dead set on a new bog. Now he made me have reservations. That's all I need after having been married this many years is to have him taking photos of me on a piece of equipment stuck down in a hole. I'd never live it down and he'd be looking at me and giggling and I'd know exactly what he was laughing at. Problem is that he wouldn't even need to say "I told you so".
C
cyp8472
Guest
Just a quick post, cyp kent. actually grows well in my zone 4 and I heard it has been grown to zone 3. I grow my reginae the same way as my kent. except media composition and both do well. I have noticed it can take a little more heat and less moisture then a lot of the cyps that I grow. The yellow lady slippers(think there is 5 now?) can also adapt to wide variety of conditions and are the easiest lady slippers to grow in my opinion, if you haven't thought of them yet. As for Arietinum they are really touchy I have heard but I am getting my first plants this fall because they are threatened in my state so I had to get a permit to have them, so wish me luck. Hope this helps!
NYEric
Well-Known Member
Just practice w/ the handles left/Right; one for in and out and for up and down, one for open [out] or close [in] the bucket.
E
Eric Muehlbauer
Guest
If the conditions are right, the plant should grow...if you can get C. aretinum, then go for it. For example: C.acaule is supposed to be so difficult...but at my summer place, in Cutchogue, LI, C. acaule is native. The soil is nearly pure sand, pH 3.9, no nutrients...so my plants (not collected) do well...I have one that is over 22 years old. So if your conditions are just right for arietinum,go for it. By the way, I have never found CP's to be that water sensitive. There was an article in the OD by Jack Fowlie, maybe 15 or more years ago, that said that VFT's do well with fertilizers. I actually set one of my students up with an experiment, to grow Dionea with varying doses of fertlizer...(Miracid) she actually found her best results with 1/2 tspn miracid/1 gal tap water..I prefer outdoor bogs, and I have kept VFT's alive up to 10 years outdoors in Cutchogue...they must be covered with evergreen branches over the winter though...Take care, Eric
TheLorax
Awardless studette
I've decided to try only one arietinum since so many of you have had issues with it. I think I will plant it in a small 200 gallon sphagnum peat/sand bog in dappled shade and see what happens. C. parviflorum pubescens was documented as having been present on my property. C. reginae is documented as having grown by the tens of thousands around here along with Spiranthes cernua however I have not run across any reginae in the past 10 years. I do have Spiranthes here. My best bet is to probably try planting the reginae directly into the ground near where the Spiranthes is growing. I would try the parviflora pubescens. It would be nice to have a dash of yellow out there.
cyp8472- may I please have the name of the nursery that you bought your kentuckiense from?
NYEric- I am allowed to go in and get a free lesson before I rent a piece of equipment. Probably a good idea. I will go in and see if I can coordinate the foot pedals with the hand controls. I'm not all that coordinated but I plan on trying my best.
Eric Muehlenbauer- I amend my potting mediums by adding Miracid to Sarracenia. I cut it to 50%. I do it once a month while they are actively growing. I have noticed that sarr seedlings are twice the size in one season of seedlings that do not get a little drink of dilluted Miracid. I did not enjoy the same results your student enjoyed when using Miracid on Dionaea but I have heard of others who have. When I took a peek at the roots of some of my Miracid Dionaea plants, the root systems had failed.
I agree with you, if the conditions are right the plants should grow. Now all I have to do is determine what the right conditions are then locate or attempt to create those conditions here. That's going to be a little bit trickier but I've got a bit of time on my hands to figure out exactly what I want to try and where I want to try growing it.
What is an OD article and who is Jack Fowlie please? I'd be very interested in any publications you could suggest for me. I read a tremendous amount and would love to have a few good orchid books to read.
Question for both Erics- what does the Awarded Stud under your user names mean?
cyp8472- may I please have the name of the nursery that you bought your kentuckiense from?
NYEric- I am allowed to go in and get a free lesson before I rent a piece of equipment. Probably a good idea. I will go in and see if I can coordinate the foot pedals with the hand controls. I'm not all that coordinated but I plan on trying my best.
Eric Muehlenbauer- I amend my potting mediums by adding Miracid to Sarracenia. I cut it to 50%. I do it once a month while they are actively growing. I have noticed that sarr seedlings are twice the size in one season of seedlings that do not get a little drink of dilluted Miracid. I did not enjoy the same results your student enjoyed when using Miracid on Dionaea but I have heard of others who have. When I took a peek at the roots of some of my Miracid Dionaea plants, the root systems had failed.
I agree with you, if the conditions are right the plants should grow. Now all I have to do is determine what the right conditions are then locate or attempt to create those conditions here. That's going to be a little bit trickier but I've got a bit of time on my hands to figure out exactly what I want to try and where I want to try growing it.
What is an OD article and who is Jack Fowlie please? I'd be very interested in any publications you could suggest for me. I read a tremendous amount and would love to have a few good orchid books to read.
Question for both Erics- what does the Awarded Stud under your user names mean?
C
cyp8472
Guest
I got my kent. from several places. I got a couple from raising rarities, a few from hillside, I also bought many seedlings from spangle creek, and lastly when the seed bank had seeds I bought them and flasked my own.
TheLorax
Awardless studette
I found your nurseries- Thank you.
NYEric
Well-Known Member
"Awarded Stud" It means what it says. Actually it means we post on the forum a lot.
Actually it means we post on the forum a lot.
E
Eric Muehlbauer
Guest
Sorry.....the OD is the Orchid Digest, probably the best orchid periodical in the US. The late Jack Fowlie had been its editor during the 80's, maybe late 70's.....an incredible character. Had no grasp of written grammar and his own, very unique, ideas on paphiopedilum taxonomy. That said, he was an incredibly productive writer who travelled to see slippers in situ, and got to know the people in the areas where they grew, and the people who collected them and grew them. His influence helped the Orchid Digest become and remain the great magazine that it still is. And one of his articles was on growing Dioneae with fertilizer. I should mention though, in regard to my experiences, that NYC tap water is exceptionally pure and soft, neutral in pH...and I haven't seen it damage even the most sensitive plants. My Cutchogue tap water is well water, very acidic and soft, low in all minerals except manganese. Good for CP's, awful to drink...makes ice cubes that taste like garlic and coffee that makes you gag before reaching for the Tums....Take care, Eric
TheLorax
Awardless studette
Lowly bloom here...
Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking the designation might have something to do with the two of you having been able to attain cultivar status on some particularly nice hybrids.
Appears Jack Fowlie was a character and is sorely missed. The world is sorely lacking characters these days.
"NYC tap water is exceptionally pure and soft, neutral in pH"- braggart
I've known people who avoided their tap water like the plague hauling jug after jug after jug of distilled water home only to learn the ppm on their tap was within the acceptable range for CPs. Mine isn't. I'm testing at around 225 to 275 on my well water. High sulfur amongst other undesirables. If we didn't have an iron curtain and some sort of a chlorine or maybe it is a hydrogen peroxide system, the whole house would smell like rotten eggs. I have to collect rain water by the hundreds of gallons and with the droughts I have had to lug distilled water home 50 gallons at a time. I have a fully functional RO/DI system here as a back up but with fluctuating water pressure, I can't always count on being able to use it. Our other house has water that tests out in the 75-100 ppm range. Figures that would be the case being as how we live here year round.
Tell me more about the Orchid Digest. Does it cover hardy terrestrials or is it more focused on others? Better yet, what do you believe to be the best periodical for hardy terrestrials and/or NA native orchids?
Next question- if I was to import a C. arietinum or two, when would be the best time to do this for me? I do have my CITES authority to import/export and the other person has all their ducks in a row to include phytos so no worries of me getting hauled off in shiny wrist bracelets. They'd come bareroot in their second year of growth if I was able to wait until spring otherwise I could get them this fall dormant after having completed their first year of growth. He says I should take them in fall. I want them now now now now now but I'm leaning toward next spring when I'd have more time to watch over them. Fall is an incredibly horrible time of year for me here because of all the oak and hickory trees. The squirrels go absolutely bonkers until the ground freezes stashing acorns and nuts uprooting many rhizomes, tubers, and bulbs in the process. I have a love hate relationship with squirrels but mostly I hate them.
Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking the designation might have something to do with the two of you having been able to attain cultivar status on some particularly nice hybrids.
Appears Jack Fowlie was a character and is sorely missed. The world is sorely lacking characters these days.
"NYC tap water is exceptionally pure and soft, neutral in pH"- braggart
I've known people who avoided their tap water like the plague hauling jug after jug after jug of distilled water home only to learn the ppm on their tap was within the acceptable range for CPs. Mine isn't. I'm testing at around 225 to 275 on my well water. High sulfur amongst other undesirables. If we didn't have an iron curtain and some sort of a chlorine or maybe it is a hydrogen peroxide system, the whole house would smell like rotten eggs. I have to collect rain water by the hundreds of gallons and with the droughts I have had to lug distilled water home 50 gallons at a time. I have a fully functional RO/DI system here as a back up but with fluctuating water pressure, I can't always count on being able to use it. Our other house has water that tests out in the 75-100 ppm range. Figures that would be the case being as how we live here year round.
Tell me more about the Orchid Digest. Does it cover hardy terrestrials or is it more focused on others? Better yet, what do you believe to be the best periodical for hardy terrestrials and/or NA native orchids?
Next question- if I was to import a C. arietinum or two, when would be the best time to do this for me? I do have my CITES authority to import/export and the other person has all their ducks in a row to include phytos so no worries of me getting hauled off in shiny wrist bracelets. They'd come bareroot in their second year of growth if I was able to wait until spring otherwise I could get them this fall dormant after having completed their first year of growth. He says I should take them in fall. I want them now now now now now but I'm leaning toward next spring when I'd have more time to watch over them. Fall is an incredibly horrible time of year for me here because of all the oak and hickory trees. The squirrels go absolutely bonkers until the ground freezes stashing acorns and nuts uprooting many rhizomes, tubers, and bulbs in the process. I have a love hate relationship with squirrels but mostly I hate them.
G
Grandma M
Guest
TheLorax You sound like an interesting person to meet. Hopefully, it will be within the next few weeks, and expect to have a very interesting and fun time together. Porters openhouse is on the 27th so that weekend is out.
I expect to ride with my son and daughter-in-law so I'm at their mercy about timing. I should know soon.
Marilyn
I expect to ride with my son and daughter-in-law so I'm at their mercy about timing. I should know soon.
Marilyn
TheLorax
Awardless studette
Eesh, big clarification here since I mentioned CITES. I am NOT a nursery. I am a volunteer for the State and County and I will be growing out more of their plants from seed in the years to come. I do grow threatened and endangered plants for educational purposes and for my personal property. I do not sell anything. I give my personal plants away to educators working with children or youth groups and I will give my plants away to any .org in need of specific genotype plant material for a restoration project. I do not even ask for reimbursement for postage. Come to think of it, I have also gladly given plant material away to just about anyone who has a legitimate need to include anyone working at a university or trying to pull together any type of educational programming for the public. Most of the people I voluteer with will give up anything they have for a good cause.
Grandma M, I'm not all that interesting but I do have a decent sense of humor and am into gardening. I love orchids, they just don't love me back and many have been dying on me left and right. I do have decent luck with native plants.
Yes, it will be lots of fun meeting you and goldenrose. Would you like me to bring a nice gnat catcher for you too? My girlfriend is looking forward to going up to Ackers too. She's a diehard environmentalist/restorationist but, like me, has a thing for orchids and carnivorous plants. We both do a real bang up job killing orchids and lately she's been doing a bang up job killing carnivorous plants. I'm going to be on vacation for 10 days the end of August but if we do this on a Friday to avoid traffic and crowds, 8/17 and 8/24 are good for me as would be 9/7 and just about any Friday after that.
Which reminds me, what types of orchids are you two gals into for your homes? I've got a few that I want to get rid of to make space for more mottled leaf paphs and neps. They're healthy and (knock on wood) pest free. I don't have anyone I know who is into tropical orchids that I could dump these plants on. You and goldenrose are it.
Grandma M, I'm not all that interesting but I do have a decent sense of humor and am into gardening. I love orchids, they just don't love me back and many have been dying on me left and right. I do have decent luck with native plants.
Yes, it will be lots of fun meeting you and goldenrose. Would you like me to bring a nice gnat catcher for you too? My girlfriend is looking forward to going up to Ackers too. She's a diehard environmentalist/restorationist but, like me, has a thing for orchids and carnivorous plants. We both do a real bang up job killing orchids and lately she's been doing a bang up job killing carnivorous plants. I'm going to be on vacation for 10 days the end of August but if we do this on a Friday to avoid traffic and crowds, 8/17 and 8/24 are good for me as would be 9/7 and just about any Friday after that.
Which reminds me, what types of orchids are you two gals into for your homes? I've got a few that I want to get rid of to make space for more mottled leaf paphs and neps. They're healthy and (knock on wood) pest free. I don't have anyone I know who is into tropical orchids that I could dump these plants on. You and goldenrose are it.
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