helenae & hermannii

Slippertalk Orchid Forum

Help Support Slippertalk Orchid Forum:

G

goldenrose

Guest
Found someone parting with & couldn't resist a helenae & hermannii! Sounds like they should be rather easy to grow, is anyone having troubles? What's your potting media?
They're in a fine bark mix with limestone chips, the hermannii looks like it could use a fresh mix.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SlipperKing

Madd Virologist
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Messages
19,338
Reaction score
666
Location
Pearland TX
include the hermannii as well Eric! I wonder how he got that one into the country?
 
J

Jorch

Guest
Good pick!! heleanae grows equally well for me in bark mix or straight dyna-rok. hermannii, in my limited experience (with 1 plant), is more susceptable to rot than helenae, so be more careful with watering :)
 
E

Elena

Guest
Good acquisitions. helenae CITES II !!! :ninja:
Cites I, surely? :poke:

Anyway, nice buys! My helenae is in bark & perlite mix with generous top dressing of oyster shell and some bonemeal. It didn't flower but I think I might have kept my Insigne types too dry, they seem to be growing better now I keep them a touch wetter.
 

baodai

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
284
Reaction score
8
Do not over water them, lava rock, characol, perlite and fine bark (mix), all small size ...
BD
 

Leo Schordje

wilted blossom
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
2,475
Reaction score
18
Location
NE Illinois
I use a mix of bark & charcol, and a little perlite or sponge rock if it is available. Particle size 1/8 to 1/4 inch. I top dress with about 1/2 teaspoon of oystershell for a 2 1/2 x 4 inch tall pot. I keep mine fairly moist, watering every 3 to 5 days, but I also use screens when making my mix to make sure my media is open. I sift the mix to get rid of the fines and dust. This preserves the air voids. I fertilize continuously (every watering) with 1/2 teaspoon per gallon MSU fertilizer. Light is bright shade, about 800 foot candles, under 4 tubes, 40 watt cool white, the leaves are withing 5 inches of the tubes. It is 2 cheap shop light fixtures, side by side hanging over the shelf. Lights on 16 hours per day. This seems to work for all my micranthums and others from that part of the world.
 

kentuckiense

Debaser
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
2,103
Reaction score
0
Location
Richmond, VA
I use a mix of bark & charcol, and a little perlite or sponge rock if it is available. Particle size 1/8 to 1/4 inch. I top dress with about 1/2 teaspoon of oystershell for a 2 1/2 x 4 inch tall pot. I keep mine fairly moist, watering every 3 to 5 days, but I also use screens when making my mix to make sure my media is open. I sift the mix to get rid of the fines and dust. This preserves the air voids. I fertilize continuously (every watering) with 1/2 teaspoon per gallon MSU fertilizer. Light is bright shade, about 800 foot candles, under 4 tubes, 40 watt cool white, the leaves are withing 5 inches of the tubes. It is 2 cheap shop light fixtures, side by side hanging over the shelf. Lights on 16 hours per day. This seems to work for all my micranthums and others from that part of the world.
This is pretty much exactly how I grow mine. My mix has a touch of granite chips in it, though.
 

emydura

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
7,182
Reaction score
607
Location
Canberra, Australia
I have helenae. One adult plant and lots of small seedlings. I grow them in CHC's. I think it is a pretty straight forward species to grow and pretty adaptable. Flowering it maybe more of a challenge. I haven't flowered my adult plant yet - only has 2 growths. Hopefully not long.

I know nothing about hermanii.

David
 

Hien

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
2,522
Reaction score
112
From what I heard, herrmannii is one tough cookie to kill.
media can even be as far out as.
-straight clay pebble ( I guess the person who told me must try to describe something likes hydroton)
-straight Diatomite.
From the conversation, I gather that this species is much tougher than the similar size helenae, tranlienianum, barbigerum etc..etc..
 

JeanLux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Messages
15,561
Reaction score
39
Location
Luxembourg - Europe
From what I heard, herrmannii is one tough cookie to kill.
media can even be as far out as.
-straight clay pebble ( I guess the person who told me must try to describe something likes hydroton)
-straight Diatomite.
From the conversation, I gather that this species is much tougher than the similar size helenae, tranlienianum, barbigerum etc..etc..
must be so!!! I am able to grow and flower it!:) Jean
 

Leo Schordje

wilted blossom
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
2,475
Reaction score
18
Location
NE Illinois
Averynov states that Paph hermanii is a natural hybrid, should be written x hermanii, the putative parents are (esquirolei x helenae).

But Olaf Gruss disagrees, he feels it is a good species in its own right. He states that it does not bloom at the same season as either putative parent. He also feels its distribution includes areas where neither of the putative parents can be found. He also says it breeds true from seed with out the variability one would expect from a hybrid. All are good arguments for it being a good species in its own right.

I suspect you would grow it identically to Paph helenae. It is a larger plant than helenae and barbigerum. About the same size or a little smaller than Paph henryanum. A really nice compact Paph, most like a henryanum without spots.
 

emydura

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
7,182
Reaction score
607
Location
Canberra, Australia
Averynov states that Paph hermanii is a natural hybrid, should be written x hermanii, the putative parents are (esquirolei x helenae).

But Olaf Gruss disagrees, he feels it is a good species in its own right. He states that it does not bloom at the same season as either putative parent. He also feels its distribution includes areas where neither of the putative parents can be found. He also says it breeds true from seed with out the variability one would expect from a hybrid. All are good arguments for it being a good species in its own right.

I suspect you would grow it identically to Paph helenae. It is a larger plant than helenae and barbigerum. About the same size or a little smaller than Paph henryanum. A really nice compact Paph, most like a henryanum without spots.
How does Averynov get esquirolei x helenae? I see so much henryanum in it. Cribb thinks it is a hybrid between hirsutissimum x henryanum which seems the logical parents if you think it is a hybrid. Braems thinks it is a hybrid as well.

Koopowitz thinks it is a species that has emerged from a hybrid. Interesting concept. I guess it is a population of hybrids that have become isolated over time and have continued to evolve. They would unlikely be 50% one parent and 50% another. In this case may be more henryanum. This would explain why these comparisons of man-made hybrids and natural hybrids never match up. You are comparing apples and oranges.

David
 

Leo Schordje

wilted blossom
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
2,475
Reaction score
18
Location
NE Illinois
How does Averynov get esquirolei x helenae? I see so much henryanum in it. Cribb thinks it is a hybrid between hirsutissimum x henryanum which seems the logical parents if you think it is a hybrid.
So far nobody has shown me the traits that suggest henryanum?, there are NO spots anywhere in the hermanii I have seen. I have often disagreed with Cribb over a number of matters involving taxonomy, and generally after a time, the other taxonomists prevail. Early pronouncements on a new species should be taken with a grain of salt, 20 years from now the matter will likely be viewed as settled. If someone could point out the henryanum traits in hermanii I would accept it, but so far nobody has. I do not agree with Avereynov either, but at least both putative parents he proposes are free of bold spots, like hermanii.

Koopowitz thinks it is a species that has emerged from a hybrid. ... is a population of hybrids that have become isolated over time and have continued to evolve. They would unlikely be 50% one parent and 50% another. In this case may be more henryanum. This would explain why these comparisons of man-made hybrids and natural hybrids never match up. You are comparing apples and oranges.
David
I think Koopowitz is correct. I think Paph hermanii is a species, and if its origin is hybrid, it has been a stable interbreeding entity of many generations, or many tens of thousands of years. The modest sampling of images and live plants I have seen do not suggest any recent gene introgression from recent outcrossing to either putative parent or any other species for that matter. In this case the term species is more appropriate than the term natural hybrid.

There are natural hybrids occurring in nature that breeding experiments have shown are clearly F1 or F2 from the parental cross. This is the case where the term natural hybrid fits nicely.

There are species that clearly include hybrid swarms in the background, with a range of traits that at one end may be most like one parent, on the other end are most like the other parent. When a species description includes the words: "highly variable ..." this is the likely case. We do not have good termonoligy for this. Natural Hybrid, Hybrid Swarm, Super Species. Species Complex are all terms used here.

Everything I have seen of Paph hermanii suggests it is relatively uniform in appearance. You would never confuse one for a smallish hirsustissimum, nor a henryanum nor a helenae nor for a barbigerum. They seem quite unique unto themselves. This argues for using the term "species". If a natural hybrid becomes isolated, and continues to breed and evolve, and genetically in its population becomes fairly uniform, I believe these criteria meet the meaning of species. Regardless of origin. How many years and generations are enough to call something a species? 1000, 10,000, 1,000,000, 10,000,000?

I'm going to stick to calling hermanii a good species. It certainly is a cute compact Paph. It will make lovely hybrids.
I think these little controversies make the hobby fun.:evil:
 
G

goldenrose

Guest
They are fun! Isn't this interesting where this thread has gone! :clap:
 

Latest posts

Top