Growth Rate of Cochlopetalum

[Happypaphy7]

I have P. liemianum, which I bought about two years ago in bloom.
It also had a small new start, which is now close to a mature size I think.
So, it has been very slow, at least slower than anything I have.
Is this typical or do I have a crappy grower?

The old spike had been in constant bloom for nearly 18 months until one day I accidently broke off the tip. Hopefully the plant will now focus on growing rather than flowering forever.

I bought P. Victoria-reginae in July.
It had one old fan (with no signs of an old spike as far as I could tell) and a large new growth, which is about 8in leaf span now.
The newest leaf on that growth was barely visible, but it is now about 3in, so that is a lot faster than my liemianum.
By the way, the leaves are mottled, which I like because it is not as boring while waiting for flowers. My liemianum has plain green leaves.

Are certain plants in the cochlo group considered more difficult than others??
I have always been told these are very easy.

 

[Rick]

My 13 year experience is that they are easy to stunt and turn into slow "lingering" plants when overfed.

All my early attempts starting with blooming size plants were what I would call boom and bust. Growing and blooming like crazy for a few years followed by a few years of declining stunted growth before shrinking to nothingness.

Starting with compots of seedlings they would "jump up" to about 4-6" leaf span in no time and then stop and eventually die off over a few years.

This was the pattern I observed for primulinum, glaucophylum, victoria-reginae, victoria-mariae, and moquetianum

The low K thing I started in 2011 turned this around. Previously shrinking plants and static seedlings have been growing consistently fast for the last 4 years.

They are growing at pretty good rates with virtually no feeding whatsoever.

The species with the worst reputation seems to be victoria-mariae (spelling?) Of the 5 or so known species this one is found in more acidic systems than the others, which are primarily found on dripping wet limestone areas.

 

[Happypaphy7]

I find all these species pretty much very similar and boring. lol
I do like Victoria-reginae when it's good, though. Those dark markings on the dorsal!

Anyways, it's interesting that you had such tough time with these.
Very contrary to what I have been told about them.

Overfeeding is not my problem as I do not feed much of anything I grow. lol

 

[mrhappyrotter]

I had a P. liemianum many years ago, purchased as a seedling that thinking back, was a really slow grower. I either killed it or gave it away, I don't recall at the moment. I do recall that it was the more noticeably mottled leaf variety.

I recently re-acquired one this summer, and while it's slower growing than say, the average hybrid Maudiae-type, I wouldn't exactly consider it a slow grower. My current plant is the more solid green leaved variety. I repotted it into my own mix this summer as well, and since it's in a transparent pot, I can see it's put on a lot of root growth. Perhaps yours is focusing its efforts on growing lots of root material like mine?

 

[Happypaphy7]

I repotted mine a few months ago, into a clear (well, semi clear, but anyways). Before that, it had been in the black plastic pot.

I can see it has at least three or four actively growing roots on the wall of the pot, but the top growth has been quite frustratingly slow.

Not many response, but so far, you members saying these are rather slow.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Growing cochlopetalums is interesting, I have a small collection of them I have kept going for over 20 years. Boom and bust is something I went through. My Paph chamberlainianum (I subscribe to Guido Braem's opinion, its chamberlainianum, not victoria-regina, victoria-regina is not in cultivation, and the type description is so poor it is not clear what the description is referring to, and chamberlainianum was published before victoria-regina)

Anyway, name is not that important. I too switched to K-lite or low K fertilizer in 2012 and my cochlopetalums picked up. In the photo is my chamberlainianum that I have had for over 20 years. It is now a behemoth, with a 3 foot overall leaf span. That's a helenae resting on it for size comparison. This plant had gone over 5 years without blooming, moving from a 3 inch pot into a 4 x 4 x 5 inch pot after I switched to low K fertilizer. However I also believe other factors played into its better than average growth. The cochlopetalums do not grow much when kept on the cool end of intermediate. They prefer intermediate to warm, but will also stall their growth if kept too warm. I changed my ventilation for my growing area and the last few years it has been running warmer, 68 F at night and 75 to 80 daytime most of the year, up to 85 in the heat of the summer.

They really don't need anything special, keep them moist, no hard drying out, repot before media breaks down, I repot this one every 2 years, using an Orchirada pine bark-fir bark blend with charcoal and sponge rock. I usually add a little oystershell, but that is really not necessary with the K-Lite version of MSU fertilizer I have been using. I think the oyster shell does help the longevity of the bark mix, keeping it from becoming too acidic when the fir bark breaks down. But you still need to repot before the mix goes south. They can be grown well in other media, nothing magic about my mix, but adjust your watering and fertilizer to your own mix. I fertilize with every watering at about 40 to 70 ppm N depending temperature. Less when cool, more when warm. Light is same as for my Paph sanderianum, less than the roths and philippinense, more than for Maudiae types.

But in my 20 years with this plant I have had it bloom on a much smaller size, while still in a 3 inch pot. This is the largest this plant has ever been. One happy plant, hope I can keep it that way.

 

[Leo Schordje]

..............By the way, the leaves are mottled, which I like because it is not as boring while waiting for flowers. My liemianum has plain green leaves.

I have seen mottled leaves on Paph chamberlainianum (victoria-regina if you prefer)

Paph liemianum should have red markings on the underside of its leaves and red cilia on the leaf margins, though I have seen wild collected liemianum with gray cilia, and one with black cilia (bristles) Other cochlopetalums have fewer cilia (bristles) and usually are clear cilia.

If your liemianum does not have the red spotting under the leaves, and clear or no cilia, it is likely not a "true" wild type liemianum but rather a hybrid with one of the other cochlopetalums. There was a period of time when liemianum was considered a variety of glaucophyllum and crosses between the 2 species were made by people thinking they were making more glaucophyllums, then the offspring were sorted based on appearance of the dorsal, and these glaucophyllum hybrids were sold as liemianum. Likely no intentional fraud by your vendor, rather just a fact that was the result of the taxonomy war between the "lumpers" and the "splitters". Regardless, even the hybrids of uncertain origin are quite nice.

 

[Happypaphy7]

Thanks a lot for the info and a photo, Leo.
So after 20 years, it's still a single fan??
But oh boy, isn't that thing big?!!
I hope mine stays small.

I've read that these sequential are warm growers that prefer lots of humidity.
I was thinking if it's too dry here, I'm sure it definitely is.

I just had a quick check, and my liemianum has heavy markings with strong hairs along the edge of the undulating leaves.

My victoria-reginae (the tag says so,so what's the difference then with chamberlainianum?) has very very fine, almost like misted or dusted in appearance of purple spots. Overall, they look green on the underside.
No hairs, very slight undulation along the edge.

Interesting note on accidental mix of the two species, but very much understandable.
A member, Trither, has recently posted two examples of chamberlainianum he has, and one of them looks very much like liemianum at a first glance, but the dorsal is clearly different.
Then again, I've seen some variation among liemianum and far more crazy variations in chamberlainianum.
I see liemianum far more common than chamberlainianum.
Is that because chamberlainianum is more difficult to maintain in cultivation?
I'd love a nice one with dark markings on the dorsal.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Thanks a lot for the info and a photo, Leo.
So after 20 years, it's still a single fan??
But oh boy, isn't that thing big?!!
I hope mine stays small.
I've read that these sequential are warm growers that prefer lots of humidity.
I was thinking if it's too dry here, I'm sure it definitely is.

My chaimberlainiamum tends to stay a one or two growth plant. BUT it also tends to keep blooming on a flower stem for 20 to 30 flowers before the stem browns and dries out. This number of flowers means it stays in bloom for 4 or 5 years on a single inflorescence. While they are blooming they tend to be slow to make new growths. If you want a multi-growth clump, you may have to cut of the flower stem after one or two flowers, to force the plant to put energy into vegetative growth. Mine stayed small until something changed in my culture, and it got "happy". I think the Fertilizer was one key, and the slight increase in humidity and temperature was the other key. It did bloom in a 3 inch pot, and even did the 20 to 30 flower lifespan of the inflorescence. But as Rick said, it was a boom and bust cycle. Plant would do well, then decline, then pick up again. Right now its "Up". Definitely like humidity above 50%, and don't want a chill below maybe 60 F.

I just had a quick check, and my liemianum has heavy markings with strong hairs along the edge of the undulating leaves.

Then you likely have the "real deal", this is good.

My victoria-reginae (the tag says so,so what's the difference then with chamberlainianum?) has very very fine, almost like misted or dusted in appearance of purple spots. Overall, they look green on the underside.
No hairs, very slight undulation along the edge.

I don't know what to think of the fine purple spots, I don't know it they indicate hybrid origin, or if it is just one of the variations possible. I have seen "good" chamberlainianum with mottled leaves, and with plain leaves like mine. I am not a taxonomist, my opinion is just that, though it is based in part on dinner and beer with Guido Braem, he did look at my chamberlainianum when he was here. So I go with his opinion.

If I understood him correctly, Guido's opinion, there are no "victoria-regina" in cultivation, nobody knows for sure what that "species" looks like, there is no type specimen, the original description is vague to the point of being unintelligible, and therefore the name should be discarded. There is a clear description of chamberlainianum, the description agrees well with plants in cultivation under the names of both chamberlainianum and victoria-regina, and the publication of chamberlainianum pre-dates the description of victoria-regina. All victoria-regina in cultivation fit the original description of chamberlainianum. But like the philippinense-laevegatum-roebellinianum debate - we are hobby growers and often the "hobby" refuses to go along with the taxonomists, the hobby sticking to old, or incorrect names even after being presented with the current taxonomic information. I still have a hard time with getting it straight on what to call all those formerly Laelia species that I love. Is it Laelia tenenbrosa? Sophronitis tenebrosa? or Cattleya tenebrosa? So if you want to keep your label as victoria-regina, that is fine, most of us know which species you mean.

Interesting note on accidental mix of the two species, but very much understandable.
A member, Trither, has recently posted two examples of chamberlainianum he has, and one of them looks very much like liemianum at a first glance, but the dorsal is clearly different.
Then again, I've seen some variation among liemianum and far more crazy variations in chamberlainianum.
I see liemianum far more common than chamberlainianum.
Is that because chamberlainianum is more difficult to maintain in cultivation?
I'd love a nice one with dark markings on the dorsal.

Whether a plant is common in cultivation is due to how often breeders made seed pods, nothing to do with how common or rare they are in the wild. I think liemianum is a little bit easier, or more forgiving to grow in the hobby. Also it is a less robust plant, taking less space, has better, less crowded spacing for its flowers, which is a trait hybridizers are concerned with, so I think breeders have made more seed pods of liemianum. Plants come and go in popularity, right now there are very few offering chamberlainianum even under the victoria-regina name. Everyone has primulinum for sale, in all its color forms. Maybe I should hang a seed pod on my chamberlainianum? Next flower, maybe.

I've seen Trithor's photos and he has some interesting plants. He is in South Africa, and he knows the provenance issues with unintentional hybrids being passed off as species. I think he has made his "best guesses" and from photos I don't think I could disagree with his labeling. Without collection location data, it is guess work to make claims about any one plant being "the real deal". But you have my "best guesses" for your plants.

I'm just glad you didn't ask me about glaucophyllum - that is the species that has the most hybrids being passed off as the "faux species". It also is the species that seems to have the greatest natural variation. Especially if you include moquettianum as a variant of glaucophyllum. I am not up to speed on this one. I keep my glaucophyllums separate from my moquettianums, but I don't know what the current view is. They do have different growth habits and flowers, but intergrades seem to exist, which really muddies the waters.

Hope this helps. - Leo

 

[Happypaphy7]

Thanks again!

Regarding my description of my plant, I guess I did not do a good job and made confusion on your part.
Victoria-reginae I have has mottled leaves, and the fine purple spots are on the underside of the leaves, although they are so fine that they appear green for the most part.

The leaf span is barely around 6 or so, I guess it's a baby still.
This is the first time I saw it offered, so I picked it up without thinking much when the opportunity presented itself.

Liemianum seems to be readily available.
Primulinum even more so as you say.

Regarding the name change, I'm not a big fab either.
Especially certain things like the one you mentioned, laelia to sphronitis, which to me is just a small plant with red flowers.
I also hate to call neo vanda. Just can't. at least not for a while. lol

 

[Leo Schordje]

I looked close at my Paph chamberlainianum, in the photo it appears plain green, but the undersides near the base of the plant there are very fine, very small red spots that from a few feet away appear as a faint red blush. So faint it didn't really show in the photos. So, your spots sound similar to mine. And I know some races of chamberlainianum (victoria-regina) do have mottled leaves. It is very likely yours is the "true" species.