General Orchid Taxonomy

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SlipperFan

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bench72 said:
ok, Dummy here again, trying to make light of this discussion...

1. I cannot register a hybrid if I didn't make the cross because I am not certain of the parents. So I'll make the cross!

2. But, one of the parents is a hybrid, so I need to also know that the parents of that hybrid is legitimate. So, I have to do the hybridizing there just to make sure.

3. Gosh, I've just noticed that Paphiopedilum Winston Churchill has about five generations in that family tree, so I really need to know all those parents as well... I'm glad I'm young enough to do all these hyrbidising.

4. Oh but wait, just because I am down to the species level, how do I know that I actually have that species, after all, I'm not a taxonomist!

5. Well, I guess the only people who can name hybrids will be taxonomists!
You are no dummy. Unless I am, also. You wrote down what I was thnking.

Sometimes what is written on tags seems obviously wrong. But when the flower matches what is written on the tag, even if I didn't make the cross, why should I not trust it. If I cannot trust the name one the tag, what's the point of having one? I may as well have purchased that gorgeous Cat. I saw in a Meijer store tonight -- large healthy plant with flowers of bright clear yellow and the brightest cleanest orange lip I've ever seen. But no tag.:sob:
 

John M

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SlipperFan said:
You are no dummy. Unless I am, also. You wrote down what I was thnking.

Sometimes what is written on tags seems obviously wrong. But when the flower matches what is written on the tag, even if I didn't make the cross, why should I not trust it. If I cannot trust the name one the tag, what's the point of having one? I may as well have purchased that gorgeous Cat. I saw in a Meijer store tonight -- large healthy plant with flowers of bright clear yellow and the brightest cleanest orange lip I've ever seen. But no tag.:sob:
That's okay Dot. Go back and pick up that plant tomorrow. I'm sure that if you send Mr. Braem even just a single photo, he'll be able to tell you exactly what it is. Heck, he'll even be able to tell you what the hybridizer had for lunch on the day that he did the cross pollination.:evil: :rollhappy:
 
B

Braem

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Quite mistaken Mr. Marcotte, even I can't tell the parents of a hybrid, and I am not so arrogant to claim that I do. And I also do not cheat the orchid world by registering fraud hybrids.

However, what I will be able to say is that if any plant comes from you, it would be better just to trash it.

And by the way, thank you for your posts: You have adequately proven all my points, and now I know that you are not only a entirely dishonest person but also lack any manners or education.

Sincerely Yours
Guido J. Braem



John M said:
That's okay Dot. Go back and pick up that plant tomorrow. I'm sure that if you send Mr. Braem even just a single photo, he'll be able to tell you exactly what it is. Heck, he'll even be able to tell you what the hybridizer had for lunch on the day that he did the cross pollination.:evil: :rollhappy:
 
B

Braem

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No, there is notting about dummies here:

as I said, if you simple start over with secured materials, and you stop hybridizing with old material that you cannot identify. And that of course becomes more difficult with any generation you add.

That is all. But if you can't let go from the old, you are just perpetuating mistakes.

And this has nothing to do with being a taxonomist or not. It has to do with personal and professional integrity or the lack thereof.

Guido J. Braem


3. Gosh, I've just noticed that Paphiopedilum Winston Churchill has about five generations in that family tree, so I really need to know all those parents as well... I'm glad I'm young enough to do all these hyrbidising.

4. Oh but wait, just because I am down to the species level, how do I know that I actually have that species, after all, I'm not a taxonomist!

5. Well, I guess the only people who can name hybrids will be taxonomists!
 
L

lienluu

Guest
Hello all,

I think this thread has gotten completely off topic, in the wrong way. Please refrain from further character judgements and let's try to keep this thread on topic--orchid taxonomy. We're not trying to classify people here...

Lien
Forum admin.
 
B

Braem

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Now that is the casus cnactus: [and no, this is nothing immoral, illegal or insulting]

1) Do not breed with old material. Start all over. [Unless it is possible to identify the old material in a full-proof process by independent people, but then, I do not know any full-proof process of identifying a hybrid. When I am asked about a hybrid [and that happens quite often] my answer will always be: "I suspect the influence of that and that species" and I will never go beyond the term "suspect".]

2) When you start all over, have your species identified by at least two independent taxonomists, and if there is disagreement have them explain and put in your records [identified by .... and ....], keep a picture of the plant and flower, etc.

3) Put in a secure hybridizing registration system. Enforce strict sanctions against greedy people that register just for the sake of getting an award. If someone gets caught cheating, he/she is banned from any registration, any awards etc.

4) Change the award system to make sure that only properly identified plants get awarded (now that is already more or less done with the species), but it also needs to be done with the hybrids.

Sorry I can't tell you any better right now. And I know most of the growers will not like the medicine. But IF you want a clean system, you will have to take it. And I do realise that it will need a "concerted efford" between Growers, RHS and societies, taxonomists.

Do I see this happen? If you ask me to be honest: NO. But I would love to stand corrected.

Guido

bench72 said:
Dr Braem,

How do people ensure that they have 'secured' material?
 
B

bench72

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braem said:
1) Do not breed with old material. Start all over.
ok, cool, start all over again...

I have all my species, and have confirmed their identity with at least two taxonomists.

I breed the two species and I the plant grows and is in flower, so I register the hybrid. I put this hybrid name tag in the pot of my orchid.

I repeat the breeding process, ie my hybrid onto the confirmed species. I register that and I put a tag in the pot.

Is this still all ok? If so, then I'll keep going with scenario...

gosh, I realise that I'm not getting any younger and those complex hybrids I want to get to is quite a few generations...

so, I need to keep hybridising my plants which have been hybridised from my original confirmed species...

oh, it's Xmas... "Merry Xmas Billy, here's a seedling of my latest hybridising attempt." Tag saysOrchidaceae maybe x Orchidaceae possibly

but the following week, my bungee rope snaps (I like to live with danger)...

Can Billy name the hybrid in honour of me? And how can Billy know for sure that what I gave him is what the name tag says?

How many generations of hybridising can we do as humans before we keep keeling over? Will we ever get to the Winston Churchill's again?
 
B

Braem

Guest
I love it. You have grasped what kind of problems there are.

Guido


bench72 said:
ok, cool, start all over again...

I have all my species, and have confirmed their identity with at least two taxonomists.

I breed the two species and I the plant grows and is in flower, so I register the hybrid. I put this hybrid name tag in the pot of my orchid.

I repeat the breeding process, ie my hybrid onto the confirmed species. I register that and I put a tag in the pot.

Is this still all ok? If so, then I'll keep going with scenario...

gosh, I realise that I'm not getting any younger and those complex hybrids I want to get to is quite a few generations...

so, I need to keep hybridising my plants which have been hybridised from my original confirmed species...

oh, it's Xmas... "Merry Xmas Billy, here's a seedling of my latest hybridising attempt." Tag saysOrchidaceae maybe x Orchidaceae possibly

but the following week, my bungee rope snaps (I like to live with danger)...

Can Billy name the hybrid in honour of me? And how can Billy know for sure that what I gave him is what the name tag says?

How many generations of hybridising can we do as humans before we keep keeling over? Will we ever get to the Winston Churchill's again?
 

John M

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My last word:

Here's some good advice for you, Mr. Braem. "It is better to be thought of as a fool, than to open ones' mouth and remove all doubt."

....And for everyone else on this forum:

"He who debates with a fool, is himself, a fool."

So, continue to engage in this and any other debate with Mr. Braem at your peril.

Good bye.
 

Heather

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Braem said:
NO. I just said that I fought against something that I can't fight against. We obviously have different opinions about the issue, but that is OK.

Guido

I think this is the crux of the biscuit.

I would have liked it to be the case that we could civily debate these issues without causing insult to others. I would like us to be able to continue these debates, but from here on out I think we need to keep things generalized and refrain from using specific examples.

If we cannot keep this civil and without character insult between all involved, I will shut this forum down.

I think it's time to start a new thread, if someone has a genuine taxonomy question. Let's let this one go for a while.
 

gonewild

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Heather said:
I think this is the crux of the biscuit.

I would have liked it to be the case that we could civily debate these issues without causing insult to others. I would like us to be able to continue these debates, but from here on out I think we need to keep things generalized and refrain from using specific examples.

If we cannot keep this civil and without character insult between all involved, I will shut this forum down.

I think it's time to start a new thread, if someone has a genuine taxonomy question. Let's let this one go for a while.
Heather,

There is no need to shut this forum down, especially considering your basic platform for slippertalk. The "insults" here are very minor and the whole line of discussion is exactly what happens when you have a group of expert "scientists" (of which I am NOT one) get together and discuss what they are all experts on. There is nothing polite and civil about it. It is a bitter battle to become top dog. I know many persons of Guido's stature and have spent much time in Peru with taxonomists, researchers, curators, fieldworkers and just about any other level of scientist you can come up with. They all feel as though their knowledge is supreme because they have proof. If the truth were only known as to how flawed the field data they all use for proof is!

I know you asked to let this go for awhile, and I have not responded quickly to the comment you quoted above, because I wanted to think about it.
I asked if I had been insulted because I was not sure, not because I felt hurt or insulted by Guido's comment. I really did not know what being part of a windmill meant and I wanted to understand his thinking. I accept that he meant no personal insult. In fact I take it as a complement now. A windmill is a source of strong powerful energy that is free. (I doubt that is what Guido was thinking).

I do not believe for a second that Guido has damaged the reputation of JohnM by bringing his opinions to light. I did not know who registered the Phrag in question and I refereed to it merely because it was used as an example by people involved with it in this forum. If you read back through my posts you will see that my argument (discussion) with Guido was in fact that I assumed facts based on the info published in front of us. That is, that the plant was labeled and the person registering it had every moral right to use the labeled parents for the registration. I as an uninvolved person did not question the reputation of the person Guido accused of fraud and in fact pointed out that there was no fraud or wrong doing. Guido has an opinion and he seems to like to use strong adjectives to try to elevate his position. As I said above this is normal for his profession. JohnM stepped forward and identified himself publicly as the person in question. I applaud him for defending himself publicly. His statements prove without doubt he did not abuse the registration process. JohnM choose freely to comment here.

Now although the content of the conversation of this forum has become too personal and should be kept to "theory" I do feel there is a lot of good points being brought to light. I think we should continue this discussion and keep this forum available as reference.

I suggest for the good of slippertalk, Do not censor or delete this forum and most of all do not threaten to do so if people write what they feel.

This is the place to become informed about people that control our interests. Because of this forum I have a chance to really know what Guido Braem is about. What he says here and how he says it will help determine his reputation for all of time. I now can have an opinion about Guido Braem's work.
 
B

Braem

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Lance,

you should read Don Quichote. Than you will understand. It is Don Quichote who is mad, not the windmill. And I am mad because I spend so much time trying to explain things and get called an idiot for it [actually I should have known that this was going to happen, so really only I am to blame]. And I am so sorry for all of you who do not want to understand that people like Marcotte turn the Orchid Registration System and the Award System into a farce.
You don't have to defend my style nor my language. It is just fine, maybe a bit rough to some, but it has shown a lot of people that I put a lot of value on personal and professional integrity. It has always been the same and always will be the same. If that is not accepted nor appreciated, I will have to seriously reconsider whether I am willing to devote my time to this forum.

Guido
 
M

Mahon

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Braem said:
Lance,

you should read Don Quichote. Than you will understand. It is Don Quichote who is mad, not the windmill. And I am mad because I spend so much time trying to explain things and get called an idiot for it [actually I should have known that this was going to happen, so really only I am to blame]. And I am so sorry for all of you who do not want to understand that people like Marcotte turn the Orchid Registration System and the Award System into a farce.
You don't have to defend my style nor my language. It is just fine, maybe a bit rough to some, but it has shown a lot of people that I put a lot of value on personal and professional integrity. It has always been the same and always will be the same. If that is not accepted nor appreciated, I will have to seriously reconsider whether I am willing to devote my time to this forum.

Guido
I agree with Braem completely on everything he has posted.

-Pat

PS: It is almost impossible to conjure a true impression of a person you know impersonally. For all I know, some of you may in fact be chimpanzees.
 
E

Eric Muehlbauer

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Now....to get back to a statement made by Dr. Braem earlier...to the effect that a species should have a naturally reproducing population in its habitat...an idea that has always made sense to me...Is there a population of Paph. viniferum out there? (the "Jac" strain of callosum/crossii)? How about platyphyllum (formerly stonei latifolium)? While I can see why Koopowitz could consider viniferum a separate species in regard to its characteristics as compared to callosum, as far as I know there are only 3 individual plants collected from the wild in that taxon...and I don't know of any other platyphyllum other than "Ruth Kennedy". I have never heard of populations of these types...any info that I haven't heard yet? Thanks, Eric
 
B

Braem

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Eric et alia,

Paph. viniferum is a colour form of Paph. crossii (callosum if you want). Paph. platyphyllum (formerly Paph. stonei latifolium) is a hybrid of origin to be compared to the origin of Phrag. tetzlaffianum.

I did include the latter in the book, because I was more or less convinced by the stories told me by two people, but that was a mistake.

Guido


Eric Muehlbauer said:
Now....to get back to a statement made by Dr. Braem earlier...to the effect that a species should have a naturally reproducing population in its habitat...an idea that has always made sense to me...Is there a population of Paph. viniferum out there? (the "Jac" strain of callosum/crossii)? How about platyphyllum (formerly stonei latifolium)? While I can see why Koopowitz could consider viniferum a separate species in regard to its characteristics as compared to callosum, as far as I know there are only 3 individual plants collected from the wild in that taxon...and I don't know of any other platyphyllum other than "Ruth Kennedy". I have never heard of populations of these types...any info that I haven't heard yet? Thanks, Eric
 

Jon in SW Ohio

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I know "Paph. intaniae" has never really been accepted as a good species, and I have no debate over that. I was wondering though what cross it is suspected of being.

Jon
 
B

Braem

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Jon,

It is most probably a complex hybrid. I am not going to give names in this post, but the people the plant originates from is known to put hybrids out in the jungle (that is, the "greenhouses" of the family are so to speak in the jungle). It is impossible to clarify what the parents really are, but I have "speculated" at another occasion that P. parishii could be involved.

Guido


Jon in SW Ohio said:
I know "Paph. intaniae" has never really been accepted as a good species, and I have no debate over that. I was wondering though what cross it is suspected of being.

Jon
 
O

ORG

Guest
Dear Mick,
I send Guido your question.
Perhaps he will answer.

Best greetings

Olaf
 
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