First Bud of the Black Leucochilums

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Guldal

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...in order to keep the lineage correct, that this plant came from breeding only from leucochilums and sibs....
As I'm here in agreement with Rudolf, I would love to see photos of all the alleged leucochilums forming the ancestral lineage for your flower to ascertain whether they are all indeed leuchos - or whether somewhere along the line a (good) godefroyae misidentified as leucho shows up?
A) Since leucochilum has full species status (WCSP 2021), it is more important now than ever to keep this separation intact.
B) Thus, this will be judged as leucochilum, and not godefroyae, all over the world today.
Re A: Since your flower does not adhere to the botanical description of leucochilum, it might instead count as proof, that the decision to raise leuchos to species status is wrong - and that it, even more so if your plant's ancestry is profoundly leucochilum, would make much more sense to sink both leuchos and godefroyaes within the species godefroyae, as the outside, pure white pouch in casu can't be seen as a stable trait.
Re B: Which doesn't say anything definitive about the botanical status of these plants!

PS. I got so carried away, that I almost forgot to state how much I like your wonderful godefroyae! ;) 😁
 
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Ozpaph

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its a spurious argument. A few spots on the pouch doesnt invalidate the 'speciation'. There werent any 'black' leuco/godefroyaes when the species was described. So does that make it a new species or form? I dont think so. These are all heavily line bred. There will be more variation.
Maybe one day genetic testing will tell the tale (they will probably be indistinguishable, genetically)
 

GuRu

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Leslie, these are gorgeous flowers, without any doubt......but you know we can't find consensus about their name....Lol
 

DrLeslieEe

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Leslie, these are gorgeous flowers, without any doubt......but you know we can't find consensus about their name....Lol
I agree, so I will call them godefroyae (former leucochilum) lol.
 

TyroneGenade

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It is unreasonable to expect textbook leucochiliums from intensely selectively bred plants. The goal of the breeding is to create aberrations like what we see here. We know from pylori mutations that pouch color can transfer to the petals and vice versa. What we see here is hardly surprising.
 

Hien

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yes, breeding material for sure ,
I mean ,cross them to each other right away,
unless you are waiting for another black ready to bloom in a few day.
 
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Guldal

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Finally, the brother Blackest Knight has arrived!! And he’s a handsome one!View attachment 28496View attachment 28497
Gorgeous beauties both of them! :p :p :p

There werent any 'black' leuco/godefroyaes when the species was described. So does that make it a new species or form?
Stephen, you are indeed right, there weren't any 'black' godefroyaes, when the species was described - but the original, botanical description of godefroyae had it with spotting on the outer lip. Both Leslie's flowers adhere to that description.
The botanists that afterwards tried to establish godefroyae var. or fma. leucochilum described the flowers of these plants as having an outer unspotted pouch.
Thus, actually, "a few spots on the pouch" does "invalidate the 'speciation'" form a morphological point of view!

I've seen someone trying to distinguish more clearly between godefroyae and leucochilum by referring to differences in other morphological features as f.ex. differences in leaves or roots. I haven't, though, stumbled upon litterature, where these differences have been really convincingly described. If anyone here is familiar with articles or authors describing such differences validly, I would really be happy to know?!

However, Stephen might be right in ascertaining, that further progression and refinement in genetics could be, what's needed as the final solution to whether we are dealing with two varieties or colourforms of godefroyae (fma. godefroyae and fma. leucochilum) or two distinct species in their own right?
 
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tnyr5

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If we can make complex greens that are almost 20cm across from the species of subgenus Paphiopedilum, we can make a black leucochilum with a white pouch. *stomps foot* :p
 
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