Roth
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I have seen many plants supposedly coming from the Eric Young, some with the 4n tag, some with prestigious awards.
To keep the records:
- Don Wimber did not like to count chromosomes. So he did only and exclusively with high quality plants that would be used for breeding, or shown for awards. All the plants apart from those specific ones are though to be maybe 4n, maybe not. This includes all the plants for sale, excluding the divisions of awarded plants of course. The progeny from two tetraploid parents is of course all tetraploid, that's why the Jason Fischer, etc... from the Eric Young do not even need to be counted if both parents were counted tetraploids.
- One thing to remember, besseae, dalessandroi, and the mysterious 'besseae peru' have been bred together. Phrag. Jersey, besseae x dalessandroi, is usually sterile at the 2n level, but not at the 4n level. Hence, even if you have a 4n besseae, it could be as well as 4n Jersey. In those days, all those plants were named besseae.
- The first complete range of proven, counted tetraploids besseae and tetraploid hybrids has been exhibited in Glasgow for the WOC. All had exceedingly wide leaves, all had some teeth on their leaf sides, and all had teeth on their petals. The awarded ones usually had less frequently teeth, but they still did. Many years later, they still do. All of those plants, I have not seen them for many years, maybe they are dead.
- The staff at the Eric Young Foundation was highly skilled, respectable and respected, from Alan Moon to Martin Ahring.
- There were tetraploid, counted rothschildianum. Alan Moon showed me a photo, and I have seen myself plants in bloom of it. Trinity AM/RHS is actually a 4n rothschildianum, counted by Don Wimber. All of those are apparently dead long time ago. I am sure it is possible to ask now the EYOF for photos of those, and photos of the selected/awarded plants of everything.
- As per Eric Young request himself, the surplus plants could be disposed of through UK agents exclusively. It included McBean, Burnham, Ratcliffe, and... Mike Tibbs. The latter would get a worldwide fame by selling fake rothschildianum album, with a photoshopped photo ( still available on Tanaka website). He made a fortune with Japanese customers.
Unfortunately, Mike had some deals with some Dutches nursery, and he would grow the 'surplus disposable' plants in those places. They were all screened. Unfortunately too, he had excellent reputation, big mouth, and was very flamboyant. He had no trouble to get customers for 'selected' and 'awarded' EYOF plants in the USA and Japan.
As a result, some poorer grade Mt Millais selfing thrown away by the EYOF would end up as 'Mt Millais' FCC/RHS. That's why the one from TON, that they got in 1989 prior to that mess, is priceless, because that's a real one. For the others, I would be careful, no matter the owner. Mike Tibbs too, to explain that some divisions made consistantly poor flowers, said that the plants must be perfectly grown to get good flowers. It is not true... There is as well a small selfing of Mt Millais in Japan that is passed on as a 'division'. The plant is half size, the flowers never exceed 23-24cm, but the color is correct. That's why many people said that Mt Millais is 'compact'. It is not.
The same happened with phrags, but it was worse. EYOF was so overwhelmed with seedlings from all their crosses that they asked Mike to get batches grown in Netherlands for the trade. Some were very good, and again sold as 'divisions'.
Since those bleak days, everything sold recently by EYOF as divisions is for sure the real deal. But from 90-99, nothing is less sure.
The example:
Mt Millais at the WOC Glasgow, real.
Mt Millais division from 1989. Those who have the RHS CD, there are paintings when it got its AM, then FCC. All those are perfectly identical. Different times, different condition, but the flower is consistant.
Now...
An US Mt Millais division, picture came from a website years ago, I will not disclose which one. It is very obvious that this Mt Millais is not a real division.
This is why one must be very careful with supposed divisions from the EYOF from 1990-1999. Some phrag FCC's are not the real deal even...
To keep the records:
- Don Wimber did not like to count chromosomes. So he did only and exclusively with high quality plants that would be used for breeding, or shown for awards. All the plants apart from those specific ones are though to be maybe 4n, maybe not. This includes all the plants for sale, excluding the divisions of awarded plants of course. The progeny from two tetraploid parents is of course all tetraploid, that's why the Jason Fischer, etc... from the Eric Young do not even need to be counted if both parents were counted tetraploids.
- One thing to remember, besseae, dalessandroi, and the mysterious 'besseae peru' have been bred together. Phrag. Jersey, besseae x dalessandroi, is usually sterile at the 2n level, but not at the 4n level. Hence, even if you have a 4n besseae, it could be as well as 4n Jersey. In those days, all those plants were named besseae.
- The first complete range of proven, counted tetraploids besseae and tetraploid hybrids has been exhibited in Glasgow for the WOC. All had exceedingly wide leaves, all had some teeth on their leaf sides, and all had teeth on their petals. The awarded ones usually had less frequently teeth, but they still did. Many years later, they still do. All of those plants, I have not seen them for many years, maybe they are dead.
- The staff at the Eric Young Foundation was highly skilled, respectable and respected, from Alan Moon to Martin Ahring.
- There were tetraploid, counted rothschildianum. Alan Moon showed me a photo, and I have seen myself plants in bloom of it. Trinity AM/RHS is actually a 4n rothschildianum, counted by Don Wimber. All of those are apparently dead long time ago. I am sure it is possible to ask now the EYOF for photos of those, and photos of the selected/awarded plants of everything.
- As per Eric Young request himself, the surplus plants could be disposed of through UK agents exclusively. It included McBean, Burnham, Ratcliffe, and... Mike Tibbs. The latter would get a worldwide fame by selling fake rothschildianum album, with a photoshopped photo ( still available on Tanaka website). He made a fortune with Japanese customers.
Unfortunately, Mike had some deals with some Dutches nursery, and he would grow the 'surplus disposable' plants in those places. They were all screened. Unfortunately too, he had excellent reputation, big mouth, and was very flamboyant. He had no trouble to get customers for 'selected' and 'awarded' EYOF plants in the USA and Japan.
As a result, some poorer grade Mt Millais selfing thrown away by the EYOF would end up as 'Mt Millais' FCC/RHS. That's why the one from TON, that they got in 1989 prior to that mess, is priceless, because that's a real one. For the others, I would be careful, no matter the owner. Mike Tibbs too, to explain that some divisions made consistantly poor flowers, said that the plants must be perfectly grown to get good flowers. It is not true... There is as well a small selfing of Mt Millais in Japan that is passed on as a 'division'. The plant is half size, the flowers never exceed 23-24cm, but the color is correct. That's why many people said that Mt Millais is 'compact'. It is not.
The same happened with phrags, but it was worse. EYOF was so overwhelmed with seedlings from all their crosses that they asked Mike to get batches grown in Netherlands for the trade. Some were very good, and again sold as 'divisions'.
Since those bleak days, everything sold recently by EYOF as divisions is for sure the real deal. But from 90-99, nothing is less sure.
The example:
Mt Millais at the WOC Glasgow, real.
Mt Millais division from 1989. Those who have the RHS CD, there are paintings when it got its AM, then FCC. All those are perfectly identical. Different times, different condition, but the flower is consistant.
Now...
An US Mt Millais division, picture came from a website years ago, I will not disclose which one. It is very obvious that this Mt Millais is not a real division.
This is why one must be very careful with supposed divisions from the EYOF from 1990-1999. Some phrag FCC's are not the real deal even...
