emersonii vs hangianum as a parent

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Ernie

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I sorta started this as a reply to the picture of Wossner China Moon, but most of the replies since have been (deserved) ooo's and ahhh's over the picture. So lests try again in its own thread...

For those of you fortunate enough to have access to hangianum and its hybrids, any chance you could give us an idea on traits (floral and vegetative) that are diagnostic in determining if a hybrid is made with hangianum vs emersonii?

As a follow up... verbal and/or pictorial comparisons of the *plants* are useful too (ie a side by side of Joyce Hasegawa and whatever the heck (hangianum X delenatii) is called).

Cheers,
Ernie
 

Hien

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Ernie said:
I sorta started this as a reply to the picture of Wossner China Moon, but most of the replies since have been (deserved) ooo's and ahhh's over the picture. So lests try again in its own thread...

For those of you fortunate enough to have access to hangianum and its hybrids, any chance you could give us an idea on traits (floral and vegetative) that are diagnostic in determining if a hybrid is made with hangianum vs emersonii?

As a follow up... verbal and/or pictorial comparisons of the *plants* are useful too (ie a side by side of Joyce Hasegawa and whatever the heck (hangianum X delenatii) is called).

Cheers,
Ernie
Ernie.
You took away 99.99% of your field of US potential responders by framing them with the "good fortune to have access to hangianum"
But I do hope that the 0.01% of our European & Asian friends (sorry, I forgot, our Canadian, Australian, african continental friends) will post some w/ side by side pictures.
I however have been fortunate to get a copy of the book "SLIPPER ORCHIDS OF VIETNAM" before it is out of print. My observation from pages 137,138,139 &144: is that you may be able to tell the minute differences between the species vegetatively, but they are so close that you will not be able to tell the differences in their respective hybrids.
Now from these picture, I would expect
-the hybrids made from hangianum to have thicker, more opaque flower, broader staminode, wider & beter dorsal shape and
-hybrids made from emersonii to have thinner, translucent flower, narrower staminode, narrower & usually twisted dorsal.
The color yellow is not a very useful tool for differentiation, I think, because I did see a picture (either in book or Dr Tanake's web site) of a pure yellow emersonii. So far all the breedings only used the white emersoniis.
Hopefully, someone can prove my theory w/ pictures (or disprove)
 
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Roy

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I would venture to say from my personal experience and conversations with other growers, anything with emersonii in it is difficult to grow and flower in anyones collection, regardless of experience. P.emersonii is very difficult according to most growers here. I haven't bothered to try it.
I have 2 small hangianums that are slow but growing and about 4 different hangianum crosses that are going great guns. My choice, hangianum by miles.
 

labskaus

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The leaves of my emersonii and hangianum seedlings look so similar that I just hope I'll never loose the labels. And I'd never claim I can distinguish adult plants of the two just by their leaves.
I would think the hybrids are impossible to identify by their leaves.
Having said this, the leaves ov NYErics Cam's Cloud he posted in March look broader and are less tesselated than on my Karl Ploberger (bellatulum x hangianum). This may also have to do with the choice of pod parent. Sorry, I forgot to take a photo of the leaves, but here's the flower opening right now:



Looking at pics of Joyce Hasegawa and Cam's Cloud, I would think that emersonii transports the colours from the other parent quite well. This appears less so in hangianum. My Karl Ploberger reminds me strongly of a MaBell (malipoense x bellatulum).
Hangianum has larger flowers than emersonii, in our system we awarded flowers with 17cm diameter. The Karl Plobergers and Woessner Giants (with conco-bellatulum) awarded frequently had >12cm diameter. My plant is at 11cm right now.
I find the shape of emersonii hybrids quite problematic. There aren't many emersoniis with real good shape around, especially with a good, flat dorsal. The hybrids often look floppy to me. The hybrids of hangianum I've seen so far had better shape.
One more good feature of hangianum is texture. If people refer to "a texture like cardboard" on an orchid flower, they must have hangianum in mind.

For your traits, Ernie, look at substance first, but also shape and colour. Don't waste your time with vegetative characters.

And I second Roy, emersonii is harder to grow than hangianum.

Cheers, Carsten
 
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Bolero

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This is a very interesting thread......thanks for bringing it up.
 

Roy

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Carsten, you have explained everything very well and the example of In-charm Handel leaves the Joyce Hasegawa's for dead. P.emersonii on its own is an interesting orchid as a species but so far, not a successful parent. Its too dominant. P.hangianum is showing its potential as a parent rapidly across a wide range of matings and this is the key to know a plants breeding qualities. If any one is game, cross hangianum with a Complex paph, maybe Winston Churchill 'Indomitable' and see what happens. If anyone is interested why WC 'Indom' I can explain my theory. The color acceptance with hangianum may come thru when hang' x seedlings are mated with good color flowers for the next generation.
 

Roy

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May I add one exception to the hangianum breeding. I've seen one or two on the net of hangianum x primulinum......well... what a waist of time and effort to produce what it has. YUK !!!!!!!!!
 
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