Dream Hybrids MegaThread

[TyroneGenade]

It depends on the parents. In this case both were album and it worked:
http://orchid-lin.blogspot.com/2009/06/paphiopedilum-wild-thing-fma-album.html

Oh my. That is striking! And what luck that the alba genes were compatible.

If I am not mistaken an albanistic St Swithin is in seedling from Norito. We will see if 1/4 come out albums.

If they have the same gene for albanism, and its resessive, and the exact same mutation then one should get all of them being albino. On the other hand, if the genes are different then none will be albino. But a selfing of that generaion would give 1/8 to 1/16th will be albino. If the alba mutation is dominant in both or either parent than one has a 100% to 50/50 chance of albinos. My point: this would be a silly bet unless one knows the genetics. Chatting with the Phal breeders, there are multiple paths to albino and almost always the albino mutation is in a different gene from species to species.

This is pretty much why I would tend to line breeding over making alba x alba crosses. At least in line breeding you have some idea of the starting material while alba genetics is a big guess.

On idea, to avoid inbreeding depression, would be to set out with several multiflorals (i.e. (1) kolopakingii (flower count), (2) philippinense (vigor + flower count), (3) rothschildianum (size + flower count) and cross each to, for instance, (4) niveum and the cross the progeny working towards several large clean white flowers per stem. My idea would be:

F1s: (5) 1 x 4, (6) 2 x 4, (7) 3 x 4
F2s: (8) 5 x 6 for vigour and flower count and (9) 6 x 7 for vigour and size
F3: 8 x 9 to give (10) which would ideally have several large white flowers on vigourous plant. This is, of course, wishful thinking. Even if every seed were sown and every plant grown out (who among us has the space! :crazy to blooming I doubt anyone would strike it this lucky first go. One would probably have to play around witht he F1 progeny a bit before moving on to stage 2.

Well, I think I've been enough of a wet blanket.

 

[tim]

I will find a large spot on my benches for micranthum x bellatulum. I have heard that it has been made in the past. I also heard there were alot of dogs but the good ones were really good. Can someone school me on this?

Last time I was at Nick Tannaci's there were still a few at $15 each...

 

[NYEric]

Clarke, you'll be visiting me soon I see! :evil:
labskaus - spicerianum album?!
paphioland - Jason Fischer x Pk was made only 8 plants survived out of flask, hopefully we'll have photos w/in a few months.
I like the color that phrag fischeri adds to its hybrids, hopefully more crosses w/ besseae, schlimii and Pk will be made.

 

[nikv]

I have a liemianum x gratrixianum that I purchased as a tiny seedling from Ray Rands years ago. It's one of only a few plants that I purchased as part of the six-packs that he offered in the AOS Bulletin ads that I've managed to not kill. It's a multi-growth plant but has yet to bloom. But I dream of seeing this plant in bloom some day. I think it should be a very interesting flower. And as far as I can tell, this cross has not been registered.

 

[paphioland]

Oh my. That is striking! And what luck that the alba genes were compatible.



If they have the same gene for albanism, and its resessive, and the exact same mutation then one should get all of them being albino. On the other hand, if the genes are different then none will be albino. But a selfing of that generaion would give 1/8 to 1/16th will be albino. If the alba mutation is dominant in both or either parent than one has a 100% to 50/50 chance of albinos. My point: this would be a silly bet unless one knows the genetics. Chatting with the Phal breeders, there are multiple paths to albino and almost always the albino mutation is in a different gene from species to species.

This is pretty much why I would tend to line breeding over making alba x alba crosses. At least in line breeding you have some idea of the starting material while alba genetics is a big guess.

On idea, to avoid inbreeding depression, would be to set out with several multiflorals (i.e. (1) kolopakingii (flower count), (2) philippinense (vigor + flower count), (3) rothschildianum (size + flower count) and cross each to, for instance, (4) niveum and the cross the progeny working towards several large clean white flowers per stem. My idea would be:

F1s: (5) 1 x 4, (6) 2 x 4, (7) 3 x 4
F2s: (8) 5 x 6 for vigour and flower count and (9) 6 x 7 for vigour and size
F3: 8 x 9 to give (10) which would ideally have several large white flowers on vigourous plant. This is, of course, wishful thinking. Even if every seed were sown and every plant grown out (who among us has the space! :crazy to blooming I doubt anyone would strike it this lucky first go. One would probably have to play around witht he F1 progeny a bit before moving on to stage 2.

Well, I think I've been enough of a wet blanket.

I don't quite get what you are saying will read it more carefully after work but there is no Roth album. So he probably took a philip album and crossed it with a roth to get SS. Then he either selfed or crossed two of those. The mutation should be identical in both loci, actually it almost has to be in simple mendelian genetics with out any added mutations. Penetrance with the roth Genes added I am not sure what will happen but highly likely 1/4 will be albino. Roth and Philip are also from the same group.
Aa x Aa= AA, Aa, aA, aa

 

[paphioland]

Oh my. That is striking! And what luck that the alba genes were compatible.



If they have the same gene for albanism, and its resessive, and the exact same mutation then one should get all of them being albino. On the other hand, if the genes are different then none will be albino. But a selfing of that generaion would give 1/8 to 1/16th will be albino. If the alba mutation is dominant in both or either parent than one has a 100% to 50/50 chance of albinos. My point: this would be a silly bet unless one knows the genetics. Chatting with the Phal breeders, there are multiple paths to albino and almost always the albino mutation is in a different gene from species to species.

This is pretty much why I would tend to line breeding over making alba x alba crosses. At least in line breeding you have some idea of the starting material while alba genetics is a big guess.

On idea, to avoid inbreeding depression, would be to set out with several multiflorals (i.e. (1) kolopakingii (flower count), (2) philippinense (vigor + flower count), (3) rothschildianum (size + flower count) and cross each to, for instance, (4) niveum and the cross the progeny working towards several large clean white flowers per stem. My idea would be:

F1s: (5) 1 x 4, (6) 2 x 4, (7) 3 x 4
F2s: (8) 5 x 6 for vigour and flower count and (9) 6 x 7 for vigour and size
F3: 8 x 9 to give (10) which would ideally have several large white flowers on vigourous plant. This is, of course, wishful thinking. Even if every seed were sown and every plant grown out (who among us has the space! :crazy to blooming I doubt anyone would strike it this lucky first go. One would probably have to play around witht he F1 progeny a bit before moving on to stage 2.

Well, I think I've been enough of a wet blanket.

I reread what you stated quickly. Not in this example but in one where two albino species from different groups are crossed, there is no way to predict if they are on different loci. We don't know where in the enzyme chain the mutation is occuring and whether there is an alternate means of bypassing the deficiency. So there is no way to predict except to bloom them if you take two albino species and cross them. How do you know where the mutated gene/defective enyme is? Even if you did I am not sure many people are well versed on the enzymatic chain and alternate pathways of different group paph species pigmentation.

 

[paphioland]

no question you could line breed and self your way possibly to lighter or maybe even pure albino plants but that takes along time and lots of effort. who has time to mess around with 20 generations of roths. Unless of course you find a roth that is albanistic or very light.

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

OK, on the Cyp front there is lots of work to be done. Here are some ideas:

- californicum with just about any large flowered species, but the most interesting would be with irapeanum hoping for a large, multiflowered, warmth tolerant plant.

- any large flowered tibeticum variety with similarly large macranthos with deep color - the hoteiatsumorianum varieties come to mind. The goal is for a large flower with deep "red" color.

- any of the spotted leaf species (section Trigonopedia) crossed with large flowered species such as macranthos, tibeticum, fasciolatum, kentuckiense, etc. The goal is to create large multicolored flowers on novel, dwarf plants. A few have already been done, but there is lots of potential left.

- more guttatum hybrids, especially with large flowered species, such as reginae, macranthos, etc. Shooting for a dwarf plant with good sized flowers on a more warmth tolerant plant.

- anything with subtropicum just because it is such a weird species! Goals would include a multiflowered plant with actual heat tolerance.

And the list goes on. Cyp breeding is still in its infancy. So far species such as fasciolatum and kentuckiense have produced good crosses while others like parviflorum and macranthos have resulted in more variable outcomes. The dream Cyp for me would be a huge, deep colored flower (around 6" in spread) on a relatively short plant - basically a very large flowered tibeticum.

 

[NYEric]

Cyp propagation is still in it's infancy!

 

[ohio-guy]

I saw a flower at a show once that looked to me like it was Armeniacum x suk. I know it is a named cross, but I can't find a pic. Anyway, I would like to see a cross like that that was easy to grow and bloom....basically a yellow background, with fairly large flower size and lots of freckles.....

 

[SlipperFan]

I'd like a very white very long petaled Phrag with red dots in the pouch...

 

[ohio-guy]

Dot likes dots.........

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Cyp propagation is still in it's infancy!

Don't worry, they'll grow up eventually!

 

[Hera]

WOW!! The In Charm Gallery is awesome! Page after page of beauties!!

Ditto!! I think the glaucophyllum x spicerianum was one of my dream crosses. Love the pink pouch, and I like the reflexed dorsal of spic. Its kind of like the farrieanum petals, it has its own distinctive look.

 

[Roth]

Hi Bob,

Paph. (micranthum x bellatulum) is named Paph. Kevin Porter. The good ones are few and far between, and most clones show some signs if color-break or flares in the pouch and/or petals. Most also show signs of streaking of the leaves long before they reach blooming size. One way to minimize (but not eliminate) such defects is to use the brachy as the capsule parent. All that having been said, however, the good ones are beautiful.

Thanks, Tom

There is another thing, the exhibition type micranthum with the huge pouches are not the ones to use for that cross - and quite a few others-. The best is to use a well balanced micranthum with good color, big petals and quite small but nicely shaped pouch. Then there are less flares in my experience. Another way, I have seen once micranthum kwangsee x bellatulum, they turned out without any streaks.

In the not yet made hybrids that I would love to see, selfings of a Michael Koopowitz made with a very good philippinense album. Those should be something.

Spicerianum crosses are grossly underrated. I have seen a few of those, including x parishii, x philippinense, x roth, and some were really amazing. spicerianum x kolo could look really nice in fact, or Leeanum using the insigne sanderae as a parent x kolo...

Spicerianum album indeed exists, at least 4 times it has been found. I got a plant from China of that, there was apparently one in the US, and an all pink spicerianum too, wild collected and if I remember correctly it got an award, and another one has been offered to several people from Burma, where this species gros in masses in the north.

 

[Ernie]

I'd like a very white very long petaled Phrag with red dots in the pouch...

Oooo. I'm liking the sound of that too. Good one, Dot.

-Ernie

 

[paphioboy]

What about sanderianum album (if it exists) x roth album (again, if it exists)... Or PEOY or Bel Royal made with both album parents...

 

[valenzino]

What about sanderianum album (if it exists) x roth album (again, if it exists)... Or PEOY or Bel Royal made with both album parents...

Unfortunately there are no roth or sand albino forms....in my knowledge..

But you can see a nice example looking Paph. kolosand album...I think Paphioland from this forum posted it somewhere....really beautifull!!!

My dream hybrid is Phrag. kovachii x Paph. hangianum.....probably will be a dream forever!
I will be very curious to see Paph. sanderianum X Paph. sangii.
Obviously I want to see Paph. hangianum alba X every parvi/brachy alba.

I have already in flask Paph. hangianum x Paph. tigrinum....

 

[paphioland]

Unfortunately there are no roth or sand albino forms....in my knowledge..

But you can see a nice example looking Paph. kolosand album...I think Paphioland from this forum posted it somewhere....really beautifull!!!

My dream hybrid is Phrag. kovachii x Paph. hangianum.....probably will be a dream forever!
I will be very curious to see Paph. sanderianum X Paph. sangii.
Obviously I want to see Paph. hangianum alba X every parvi/brachy alba.

I have already in flask Paph. hangianum x Paph. tigrinum....

It has to be seen in person to fully appreciate. It is totally album when I bloomed it.

 

[lindafrog]

I'll second the mexipedium crossed with besseae for tiny bright red jewels. How about dracula vampira crossed with masd vietchiana-can you imagine the brillant striping on that one..