Dragon's Blood / Sangre de Grado

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gonewild

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Let's not let this discussion become a war between natural and synthetic chemicals but rather let's discuss options available and their merits based on practical use and the real world.

When you kill off the beneficial you take away nature's (the plant's) built in infection fighter. Beneficial bacteria and fungi that exist naturally on a leaf's surface may very well be what prevent an erwina infection from starting in the first place.

When humans use antibiotics they often experience secondary infections as a result. Yeast infections? That is because the beneficials have been killed off. Are we so sure plants are effected any differently? Plants do not have an immune system like animals do, they likely depend on symbiotic microbes to destroy harmful pathogens before they enter the healthy plant tissue and start a destructive infection.
 

gonewild

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SO???? WTF does that matter????
our ability to synthesize something does in no way make that thing more powerful. Many of the compounds in it I'm sure can be synthesized and its only a matter of time before we synthesize anything.


Yes, synthesize it under a patented process and then you can pay $80 per bottle instead of $10.00 for the natural product.
 

gonewild

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From the Phyton27 website:

ACTIVE INGREDIENT
Copper Sulphate Pentahydrate*.... 21.36%
INERT INGREDIENTS................ 78.64%
.....................................................100.00%
*Copper as Metallic..........................5.5%

I'm not being snarky. I'm curious as to what the inert ingredients are.

Thanks for posting that.
The inert ingredient is likely water. (expensive water)
It appears Phyton27 does not even have soap in it?
How much does it cost?

Do a little reading about copper toxicity to plants.
What effect might excessive concentrations of copper have on a slipper's roots?
 

TheLorax

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Good question. I don't know what exactly the inert ingredients in Phyton 27 are. Inert ingredients can be solvents or they can be shelf life extenders or simply an ingredient that makes the Phyton easier to use. I don't believe it's required by law to list inert ingredients but don't let the word inert fool you, some of these "inert" ingredients can be anything but benign. Which happens to be one of the reasons why I'd prefer to use a "natural" when practical to do so. My interpretation of when it is practical to do so is going to vary from that of others.

Regardless of whether a fungicide is synthetic or "natural", it's being used to control or arrest a fungal infection. Follow with me here for a moment please. This Dragon's Blood allegedly has both antibacterial and antifungal properties so what makes it more selective in the types of bacteria and fungi that it destroys than a synthetic such as Phyton? It was my understanding that systemic synthetic fungicides were overall more selective than the naturals which is why people have been using them as prophylactics. Is my understanding correct?
 

gonewild

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Regardless of whether a fungicide is synthetic or "natural", it's being used to control or arrest a fungal infection. Follow with me here for a moment please. This Dragon's Blood allegedly has both antibacterial and antifungal properties so what makes it more selective in the types of bacteria and fungi that it destroys than a synthetic such as Phyton?

The method of application would make Dragon's Blood more selective....

Dragon's Blood treatment consists of a drop or two of the resin directly to the infected area of the plant tissue. Because of the natural properties of the resin it dries on the infected area without excessive runnoff. It persists and remains in the applied area and does not effect the other surfaces of the plant so it should have no ill effect on the beneficial bacteria in other parts of the plant.
Whereas... Phyton27 is applied as a spray to the entire plant and must (recommended) be repeated. Complete coverage would lead to elimination of beneficial microbes for an extended period of time.

Do you follow that line of thought?

It was my understanding that systemic synthetic fungicides were overall more selective than the naturals which is why people have been using them as prophylactics. Is my understanding correct?

I don't think a systemic chemical would be more selective than one applied to a specific local area.

Phyton27 is not a systemic. Copper does not move well through plant tissue.
I don't even think it is a synthetic is it? According to the label it basically contains only a small amount of copper sulfate which is a natural mineral.
 

TheLorax

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Oh oh oh, I think I just figured out what bwester was alluding to. Copper Sulfate is a heavy metal and "the ions fit between the enzyme structure and alter the structure, preventing the enzyme from acting on any substrate" and to add further insult to injury, "Copper ions actually slightly catalyse the hydrogen peroxide reaction the CuSo4 is supposed to inhibit. :)" Am I on the right track? And H2O2 degrades rapidly while the CuSo4 doesn't.
 

bwester

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Let's not let this discussion become a war between natural and synthetic chemicals but rather let's discuss options available and their merits based on practical use and the real world.

When you kill off the beneficial you take away nature's (the plant's) built in infection fighter. Beneficial bacteria and fungi that exist naturally on a leaf's surface may very well be what prevent an erwina infection from starting in the first place.

When humans use antibiotics they often experience secondary infections as a result. Yeast infections? That is because the beneficials have been killed off. Are we so sure plants are effected any differently? Plants do not have an immune system like animals do, they likely depend on symbiotic microbes to destroy harmful pathogens before they enter the healthy plant tissue and start a destructive infection.


Damn fine point, Lance.
 

bwester

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Phyton 27 IS a systemic and since erwinia is a systemic bacteria, thats why i would use the Phyton. And Lauren, I dont think thats exactly what I was alluding to and its not a heavy metal.
grumpy morning. sorry.
 

Rick

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Thanks for posting that.
The inert ingredient is likely water. (expensive water)
It appears Phyton27 does not even have soap in it?
How much does it cost?

Do a little reading about copper toxicity to plants.
What effect might excessive concentrations of copper have on a slipper's roots?

The delivery agents (adjuctvants) for insecticides and herbicides are considered inert ingredients. They are surfactants (soaps), some of which can be more specialized than Dawn, but not necessarily. That's why when you mix up a batch of Phyton it sud's up. Copper sulfate by itself does not produce suds when you shake it up in water.

We did a bunch of toxicity testing of various herbicides and adjuctvent combinations to a bioluminescent bacteria. Although the carriers are classified as inert, they often had higher toxicity to the bacteria than the herbicide. Granted that herbicides are designed to target plants and not bacteria, but surfactants are generally destructive of bacterial cell walls.
 
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goldenrose

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Hmmm .... interesting ....... look what you guys were up to while I was at work last night! :poke:
Results from both sides have indicated it works - it doesn't! Those of us that are experienced will probably continue to stick with what works for us.
:confused:I feel sorry for the newbie - OMG WHAT IS ONE TO DO?!
 

Rick

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Hmmm .... interesting ....... look what you guys were up to while I was at work last night! :poke:
Results from both sides have indicated it works - it doesn't! Those of us that are experienced will probably continue to stick with what works for us.
:confused:I feel sorry for the newbie - OMG WHAT IS ONE TO DO?!


Exactly what you suggested. Try different things and find out what works best for you.

At least one laboratory trial of products to control erwinia that I found on the web a ways back only demonstrated "cure" rates of only 10 to 20 percent of the untreated control (with its own cure rate). That's better than nothing, and may be real good if you are concerned about loosing a whole field of produce. But us orchid hobbyists only work with a couple plants at a time, and invest allot of energy and emotion into every plant, so with those odds most orchid people wouldn't consider these products as very effective. I think we have higher expectations about the efficacy of drugs than the world really operates at.
 
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goldenrose

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Well said Rick! I was glad to read your previous post on the 'results' of what makes a chemical considered effective. Drives me right back to DB, neem oil, anything but a chemical as a last resort. There is a whole world out there of essential oils, I will continue to try this & that. It's funny - have you ever heard of 'super bugs' resulting with the use of essential oils?? Has one ever heard of resistant 'bugs' resulting with the use of essential oils?? It's really too bad it's being overlooked, but then again if it were satisfying the scientific results group then as previously stated, the $10 bottle would be costing $80!
 

TheLorax

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Phyton 27 IS a systemic and since erwinia is a systemic bacteria, thats why i would use the Phyton. And Lauren, I don't think thats exactly what I was alluding to and its not a heavy metal.
grumpy morning. sorry.
I use the Phyton when I want to "sledge hammer" an infection that may be fungal... may be bacterial... or may be a combination of both. So, when I went poking around late last night to try to figure out what you were talking about and stuck copper sulfate + H2O2 + what ever else I came up with into the search engine that produced what I stuck in quotes, I didn't even come close? Well, that's the pits. For what it's worth, I'd still like to know what you were referring to. Dawn has worked fine for me when I have added it to wettable Orthene and I've used H2O2 around here as a soil drench when we've had a lot of rain and plants were sitting in water for extended periods of time. Premise being that ozygen availability to the roots is vital to nutrient uptake. It's my roots that need to be able to receive oxygen or my plant would be toast. I try my best to wait to water outdoor plants until they absolutely positively need water as it allows water from the last watering to drain completely which then pulls oxygen down through the top of the soil but we're talking about orchids here not trees and shrubs planted outside. I realize this process sort of defies logic but I believe it has helped me save many an outside plant that was drowning from too much rain from the heavens. I've never used H2O2 as an anti bacterial on a plant though.

I'd like to try to understand why Rick stated, "There's less magic to it than dragons blood, but not much more than hydrogen peroxide".

Yes, I do know that Erwinia is a bacteria.

I was pretty sure Phyton was a systemic fungicide though and with all the farmers around here using Phyton as a preventative for everything from sooty mold on down the line, I figured it had to be common practice to use it as a prophylactic for other plants. I've not known of anyone using it to thwart off potential bacterial infections but people do use it to treat bacterial infections. I guess I don't understand all that this Dragon's Blood allegedly does for a plant?

Rick, what were the cure rates for carbenocillin? Fact remains that I'm an entry level orchid hobbyist and inside the home I'll be working with only one or two plants at a time as you mentioned and I'd like to know what would be the best route to go when I don't know whether an infection is fungal... bacterial... or a combination of both. I'm not so much concerned about cost as I would be about increasing the cure rate from 10 - 20% up to maybe at least 30%- 40%.

Please help me understand bwester and Rick. I've truly only had to deal with scale and one slug so far with orchids but the day will come when I'm going to have to address more than just that and I can't be running over to the the extension office with samples that won't come back for Lord knows how long telling me what my plant has.

Regarding inert ingredients, I don't like it that they are never listed. I long ago learned they could be anything but benign and the surfactant used in RoundUp really concerns me.
 

NYEric

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Based on my understanding, I would think that mycorrhizal fungi would be killed by copper sulfate but what would it matter if we already lose our beneficial bacteria and fungi every time we repot into fresh medium?

I don't want to lose the the beneficial fungi and bacteria because I grow hydro. I don't use Phyton, only DB as a curative, Physan to clean things, and Captan if I cut a leaf.
 
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Inverness

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Any comments about the EPA requirement of DANGER as the signal word? You don't see this on very many plant protectants. In addition, here's an exerpt from the label...

DANGER: Corrosive. Causes irreversible eye damage and
skin burns. May be fatal if swallowed. Harmful if absorbed
through the skin. Do not get in eyes, on skin, or on clothing.
Prolonged or frequently repeated skin contact may cause
allergic reaction in some individuals.

Ken Brewer
 

NYEric

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DANGER: Corrosive. Causes irreversible eye damage and
skin burns. May be fatal if swallowed. Harmful if absorbed
through the skin. Do not get in eyes, on skin, or on clothing.
Prolonged or frequently repeated skin contact may cause
allergic reaction in some individuals.=cheap high!
 

gonewild

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Phyton 27 IS a systemic and since erwinia is a systemic bacteria, thats why i would use the Phyton. And Lauren, I dont think thats exactly what I was alluding to and its not a heavy metal.
grumpy morning. sorry.

OK, good point. Phyton27 must have an inert ingredient that is an active systemic property. I wonder if it really is a systemic that is trans located through the plant or if it is simply absorbed in the areas of application?
 
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