Disillusioned by AOS judging

[My Green Pets]

I took two plants in I thought were very nice. Neither was considered for awards; fair enough. It was explained to me that the flowers must be larger or more numerous than previously awarded plants.

It was suggested that I fertilize more and use MSU formula to get bigger flowers.

I left disappointed, but more knowledgeable, I suppose.

 

[ehanes7612]

That's bullshit...sorry, but any judge or judges who say that needs their credentials revoked. And they sound like they are being lazy. These reasons they give are probably the main impetus for why AOS judging is dying out. They are killing their own profession with being size queens . Balance (of color, dimensions, florescence, etc) is more important than size or number of flowers alone..pisses me off so much. I am glad that my regional judges have better sense..can you possibly go to another region?

 

[My Green Pets]

Yes, there is another judging center about the same distance in another direction.

I'm glad you mentioned other flower qualities. I was curious if form and color played important roles too, but they were not mentioned to me at the time.

 

[h_mossy]

That's bullshit...sorry, but any judge or judges who say that needs their credentials revoked. And they sound like they are being lazy. These reasons they give are probably the main impetus for why AOS judging is dying out. They are killing their own profession with being size queens . Balance (of color, dimensions, florescence, etc) is more important than size or number of flowers alone..pisses me off so much. I am glad that my regional judges have better sense..can you possibly go to another region?

Seems to me that if size were an actual factor that eventually we would reach the genetic limit, and I suppose after that there would be no more awards?

 

[troy]

Alot of judges will award their friends plants who in turn awards theirs, there is money involved, an awrded plant goes for twice as much money

 

[Roy]

Doesn't only happen in the USA. A book could be written on decisions made here in the last few years.

 

[ehanes7612]

Seems to me that if size were an actual factor that eventually we would reach the genetic limit, and I suppose after that there would be no more awards?

size is but one factor and I believe that the rubric they are suppose to use describes how size is to be judged..it really depends on how it adds to the overall appearance.


But yeah, if size were the only factor..the judges who believe that just signed their own death warrants ...no more awards

 

[ehanes7612]

Yes, there is another judging center about the same distance in another direction.

I'm glad you mentioned other flower qualities. I was curious if form and color played important roles too, but they were not mentioned to me at the time.

When I take a plant to my judging center they give me the entire spiel on why it didnt pass muster..form , color, balance, size, etc...they also mention the previous awards and give qualifying remarks to size and floral count of those rewards (as well as color saturation and balance of the inflorescence) but they also stress that these factors are only taken into consideration as parts of the whole. Sometimes it's obvious that an orchid bloom is awardable and I have noticed that the judges make a predetermined value (FCC, AM or HCC) based on their own experience before they get into any particulars. They will research the past awards but the problem with research is that you really cant know how that bloom appears, pictures will never capture the true nature of the bloom. With blooms that are on the edge of award quality..they will do a more exhaustive research to see if there is anything that will boost its measure of value for an award but I think it's mostly an exercise to acquaint themselves better with the records of that particular grex. These are things I have noticed when I go to judging..I am sure that a responsible judge is asking a lot of questions and seeing the bloom from a lot of different perspectives. Good judges, I believe, are ones who make a deep philosophical connection to their craft and have the verbal skills to help novices understand the process. Bad judges give superficial answers (either they are being dismissive of your intellect or they are lazy)

 

[Ozpaph]

Maybe the judge explaining the result was trying to be kind and encouraging rather that 'doing it by the book' "your flower doesn't make the grade". No system is perfect and most can be improved. If you want to change the system become part of it and influence.

 

[Ray]

Has it not occurred to anyone that "fertilize more and use MSU fertilizer" to get bigger flowers is also BS?

 

[John M]

Has it not occurred to anyone that "fertilize more and use MSU fertilizer" to get bigger flowers is also BS?

Yes. As I read this thread, I was waiting to hit a post that mentioned that fact. As a blanket statement, "more fertilizer = bigger flowers" is total, misguiding crap. If anything, just piling on more feed will reduce the size, quality and number of flowers.

 

[ehanes7612]

Has it not occurred to anyone that "fertilize more and use MSU fertilizer" to get bigger flowers is also BS?

I was thinking that too

 

[tnyr5]

" They must be larger and more numerous than previous awards" is not true. They just have to meet "the standard of the age" , so to speak. If we're talking Paphs, the point breakdown ( for single flowered Paphs) is Form: 40 points, Color: 40 points, Substance & Texture: 5 points Stem Quality ( straight & strong): 5 points, Size: 10 points. Smaller flowers with better form and color get awarded all the time. Now, if the flower in question exceeds those standards by a wide margin, that's a big help, because this is all subjective and even the best judges will disagree over where the cutoff for the standards should be. I can think of one scenario where this kind of response would have been appropriate, ( assuming that you were exhibiting plants that had no previous awards, because that's a whole different ball game) and that is: if form and color are just barely HCC quality, then the flowers must be bigger and more numerous than previous awards. But, if that's what this person said without explaining any further, I would have been insulted. Whoever said it should have taken the time to really explain why the flower didn't meet the standard & what can be done about it.

Sooo....may we see the flowers in question?

 

[troy]

Orchid awards mostly has to do with who is friends with who, totally political, I've had the run down from multiple well known good vendors, I realize unless I have a hangianum, godefroyae or adductum that has more than 3 flowers on 1 inflourescence, it wouldn't even be looked at

 

[littlefrog]

Probably varies by region. I don't think our region is particularly political. I know I'm not... I try to believe in the best qualities of people as well as in the best qualities of the orchids.

I think you got a lazy answer. Sometimes it is hard to answer your question, however. Judging isn't just about one attribute (it shouldn't be!). Size is only part of the equation. But what it is about is an overall combination of a huge number of attributes, and some of them are not 'pointable'. For example, some flowers just knock you over, they have a presence that is overwhelming, but when you try to quantify them (measurements, looking at color, etc) they just don't match up. The hardest part of judging is to go with those unquantifiable attributes over numbers. Numbers are easy and stupid, any monkey with a database could award things based on numbers.

One of the things you don't see, and is equally hard to explain, is that if a judge has domain knowledge - in other words real experience with a particular group of orchids - we have often seen literally hundreds of many of these plants that come to the judging table. I'm not sure I'd claim to be a true expert in Paphs, but I know them better than probably anybody in my judging center. Sounds like maybe in yours too... When I see one of those plants I instantly know how it stacks up to the 100 other plants of that cross I've seen, and can score it without pointing it, if that makes sense. I can't explain that to the exhibitor though, they would have to see 100 plants too. Of course I'm useless when it comes to many other genera, I'll admit that most phalaenopsis look pretty much the same to me. In that case I need to go with numbers and research. I might defer to another member of my team with more knowledge about that genus. And they would probably rate my opinions about slippers a little higher than someone else's. It is team exercise.

 

[My Green Pets]

The plants were both bulbophyllum, one echinolabium and one antenniferum.

I can also mention that the judge told me that he helped develop the MSU formula and they sell so many hundreds of pounds of it a year. He told me that I could really push those bulbophyllum further with more fertilizer. So honestly, as he rested his hand on my shoulder, I felt like I was being hassled to buy his product.

And yes, this happened in front of everyone present at the judging center.

 

[ehanes7612]

When my region was all of the Northwest , there was politics, especially since there were some top notch vendors who really depended on awards. I used to hear about it..but they broke up the regions a while ago ..I can tell you that the NWOS region here in seattle has no politics whatsoever..they take their craft very seriously. But with that said, they get few plants just because the orchid society in general is dying out and our shows are very small. There is talk of recombining back into one large region...they cant find new apprentices either.

 

[SlipperFan]

Has it not occurred to anyone that "fertilize more and use MSU fertilizer" to get bigger flowers is also BS?

That thought did cross through my mind...

 

[NYEric]

Alot of judges will award their friends plants who in turn awards theirs, there is money involved, an awrded plant goes for twice as much money

Never seen this. Most judges are not vendors.

 

[troy]

I know a bunch, I had a wossner kolorand in bloom 1 inflourescence had 8 the other 7, the inflourescence was 36 inches tall and the judge sneered at it, the same judge said my shun fa golden x roth was misslabeled there was no hangianum in it. Sssooooo...