delenatii & delenatii dunkel

[Kyle]

I think Olaf said the variety has offically been described in an italian journal as var vinicolor.

The plants have more then just flower color as a defining characteristic. the leaf color is unique as well. I'm not trying to say that it should be elivated to a species, but I for one would not want to buy a f2 'dunkle' that has normal delenati in the background. I don't think it would be right to even call that plant var vinicolor.

Theres a variety of phal violacia from menatwa island that has a few differences (longer spike, different smell) but when crossed with normal variety it loses all its uniqueness.

I don't think flower improvement should trump species conservation. Granted, I don't know anything about this species status in the wild, but in captivity, they are in short supply.

Kyle

 

[Drorchid]

I think Olaf said the variety has offically been described in an italian journal as var vinicolor.

The plants have more then just flower color as a defining characteristic. the leaf color is unique as well. I'm not trying to say that it should be elivated to a species, but I for one would not want to buy a f2 'dunkle' that has normal delenati in the background. I don't think it would be right to even call that plant var vinicolor.

Theres a variety of phal violacia from menatwa island that has a few differences (longer spike, different smell) but when crossed with normal variety it loses all its uniqueness.

I don't think flower improvement should trump species conservation. Granted, I don't know anything about this species status in the wild, but in captivity, they are in short supply.

Kyle

I agree with you that you should conserve the different populations (or botanical varieties) by making sib crosses of plants that are the same variety. Only when you make a selfing or a sib cross of 2 plants of the same botanical variety you can call the offspring that particular variety. A botanical variety refers to a population of plants that only grows in a certain area, and that is distinct from the regular species.

However I am also a plant breeder and a Horticulturist and as such I also think besides doing the above it is also of value to improve "species" so that they are easier to grow and have better "Horticultural" characteristics. The goal of the Horticultural Plant Breeder like myself is not just to conserve different varieties or species and reintroduce them into the wild, but yet to be able to make a "New" and "Improved" product and to sell it to the public. By crossing 2 plants from 2 distinct populations you get more variation, and usually you will be able to select for better vigor. I agree if you would cross a "Dunkel" variety and a regular variety with each other, and in the F2 or F3 generations start selecting for plants that look like the Dunkel variety you cannot call them as such. I would just call them Paph. delenatii (without a variety name). You can however give them a cultivar name.

Robert

 

[Paul]

You're both rigth. It would be good to breed 2 lines: one pure vinicolor line, and one "species" improvment line.
Next year why not start hybridizing?

I think that sanderianum told about var. vinicolor as a specific population in nature that would exist nowere else, maybe he could say more about it?

 

[Kyle]

Your right Robert, we do have different outlooks on things. I do like keeping my varieties distinct... I just don't think we will ever see eye to eye on breeding two very closly related species (like besseae and dalessandroi, caudatum and wallissi etc.). Hybrid vigor is one thing, but in my experience/opinion overtime lables get changed and genetics get muddy.

So, does Orchids Limited have an delenatii vinicolor for sale? A little bird told me your coming to Canada in the fall....

 

[SlipperKing]

I'm with you Kyle, I don't like muddiing the waters. Too many have done enough already.

Rick H

 

[Jorch]

wow, OL possibly coming to Canada in the fall? :clap: that's great news to those of us in the great white north!

 

[ORG]

Dear Robert, Kyle and all the others,
the dark form of Paph. delenatii was described in the 'Caesiana' as forma vinicolor officially. It was done some years after the first seedlings from two clones of this colourform came in flower and showed that these are also true vinicolor.

Best greetings

Olaf

 

[Paul]

update:

flower is 7.9cm natural size, which is good for a first bloom (it will improve next bloom as for shape)

 

[Drorchid]

Say Olaf,

I have a question for you, or what would your intake be as a Taxonomist?

I fully agree with Kyle that if you cross say Paph. malipoense var hiepii with a regular Paph malipoense, and in the 2nd or 3rd generation start selecting for plants that look like var. hiepii that you can't call them var. hiepii any more. To me a variety should be limited to a distinct population that is usually geographically isolated and has certain morphological characteristics that make it different from the rest of the species. It will only keep the variety status if you make a sib cross between 2 plants of the same variety, or if you make a selfing of that plant.

But what is your intake on a form? To me a different form usually means it has a one to 2 gene difference between the rest of the species. Usually it is a color difference, they can either have darker flowers and/or foliage, or they lack color. Different forms can exist in the wild within the same population. My question is, if you cross Paph. primulinum (the album type with yellow flowers) to Paph. primulinum forma purpurescens. Of these seedlings you do a sib cross. 1/4 of the next generation will be albino and 3/4 will be colored. Can you call the colored forms Paph. primulinum purpurescens or will they loose the forma status, as they were derived from a cross made with the regular primulinum?

The same case with crossing Paph. delenatii to Paph. delenatii forma vinicolor, if after 3 generations you select for plants that look like forma vinicolor can you still call them that?

Thanks,

Robert

 

[Kyle]

Thats an excellent question Robert. another example is crossing the yellow besseae to red to increase vigor and size. Or alba delenatii.

Kyle

 

[paphioland]

Maybe I should cross with the "big" one (9cm) to improve size and shape?
But if colour is recessive, it will take two generations (at least 8 years) to see the final blooms:wink:

I think that is the logical next step. Dunkels are small and have poor shape compared to their line bred siblings. The origin plant was small and poorly shaped. I think you def have the right idea. Good things to those who wait. I have an exceptional delenatii in bloom. It has a ns of around 11cm. You could send some pollen to me LOL I also have a few Dunkels but have not bloomed yet.

 

[Kyle]

Or, you could just start line breeding this variety and have bigger flowers through selection. The same way we have achieved bigger flowers with the normal dalenatii

Kyle

 

[paphioland]

Or, you could just start line breeding this variety and have bigger flowers through selection. The same way we have achieved bigger flowers with the normal dalenatii

Kyle

This will take even longer and you don't have the genetic diversity there to work with.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

How's the fragrance on dunkel? Eric

 

[myxodex]

I find this discussion about whether to cross with regular delenatii or line breed with dunkel very interesting. It seems a lot depends upon the current taxonomic structure, which can only be an approximation. If the dunkel was re-classified as a species tomorrow, then you would be making a new primary and no one would complain. On the otherhand if indeed there is a much greater genetic diversity within the regular delenatii, then in terms of species conservation (here I assume some sort of repatriation is the option being preserved) then conservation of this diversity is important ... and line breeding that is only selecting on facets of phenotype of horticultural merit ... and probably the vast majority of the genetic diversity concerns factors that are not apparent or visible to us but may be very important in the situation where plants were reintroduced into the wild (local disease resistance etc.). On the otherhand if we new the genetics it might be the case that there are (or were !) in fact genetically well defined varieties or formas within what we call regular delenatii that we have already mixed up without knowing it because they were not apparent in culture. Our knowledge is always vastly more incomplete than we like to believe ... and the differences in opinion expressed above in this thread illustrate this nicely. I for one, struggle to come to a firm opinion on this matter ... other than the feeling that the most important thing is that breeders carefully record what they have crossed so that us buyers can decide what on what we are buying.
Cheers,
Tim

 

[Ernie]

Yeah, good records are the key!

-Ernie

 

[GuRu]

....the dark form of Paph. delenatii was described in the 'Caesiana' as forma vinicolor officially. ...
Best greetings Olaf

Hello Olaf,

if I had had a look into the latest issue of "Die Orchidee" I would have seen your article regarding Paph. vinicolor.
Thanks for your hint.
Best regards from Germany, GuRu