cyp montanum - seed caps & more

[grady]

This is only a testing-the-waters post. I'm considering making a small number of my cypripedium montanum plants available for sale. Either nothing may come of this idea, or I'll (hopefully) make someone happy.

What I have is 195 wild-growing montanum on my 20-acre property in south-central Washington state. Early this summer, the great majority of plants were in bloom. Right now, most of the blooming plants have swollen seed capsules and withered flowers; a few caps did not develop at all. I hand-pollinated only fifteen flowers about 55 days ago; the others were spontaneous.

I provided free seed caps to one member of this forum, and am providing free caps on a staggered basis this summer to Troy Meyers at the Meyer's Conservancy. http://www.troymeyers.com/. He's going to try flasking them. I wish him great good luck as his one attempt several years ago failed.

Here is what Troy told me about seed caps:
>>>Non-developed caps mean unsuccessful pollinations. Size, however does not mean guaranteed success, because caps frequently rapidly reach their full size, then the cap gradually fills (or not) with the developing seed. Also, seed can develop without embryos.<<<

So, it would be impossible for me to guarantee the seed quality in the caps.

What I'm interested in doing are the following:
Provide seed caps, either once this summer or on a staggered basis
Provide pollen next year
Provide living plants that were either in bloom this year, or young plants that did not bloom, shipped intact in its soil
Provide just some soil from near (within 12") a plant

Elsewhere on this forum I've posted photos of both young and mature plants that grow here. I have even found two Phantom Orchids here, so there's something very out of the ordinary about our soil.

If you're interested in any of this, give me an idea of what you're willing to pay for any of the above. I'll only accept paypal and postal money orders as payment.

This is the first time I've considered doing this, and have some reluctance to part with the living plants. But there is a strong desire to share, and I love the idea of these plants growing and thriving elsewhere.

It sounds laughable, buying dirt over the internet. Too bad it's not gold-laced dirt - I could charge a lot more:rollhappy:

 

[cnycharles]

it's your property but I would personally limit to sharing seed and pollen...
the soil could have some fungi that could possibly transfer to somewhere someone might want to try sowing some seed.
if you were to get viable seedlings then i'd say go for it sell whatever you wanted, because you have created more from your own plants, which you could always return to the same spot, or sow your own seed across your own property and have more seedlings than when you started

 

[Trithor]

As much as I am hunting orchid seed for my new flasking set-up, I am still a novice and the requirements of cyps are too specific for me to risk being able to do them justice. Perhaps in a year or so when I have gained some experience, then I would love to revisit this idea.

 

[grady]

Perhaps in a year or so when I have gained some experience, then I would love to revisit this idea.

Whenever you're ready, Trithor, PM me; I'll be happy to provide seed caps. The real test is what happens with Troy Meyer's attempt to flask them this summer. If he's successful, I should be able to provide seed for some time and he'll be able to provide seedlings. If his results are positive I'll post notice here.

 

[grady]

it's your property but I would personally limit to sharing seed and pollen...

Yes, it's a much larger step, sharing a living plant. And, most flowering plants do not exist alone: they're usually so close to another plant that they cannot be separated. Last year I gave a living plant to a neighbor; the plant did not survive the transplant. Yet, I transplanted one last summer from its natural home to my rock garden, and it's doing very well.

Like I said in the first post, I'm only interested in selling a few living plants. This is the first year that I've carefully located, photographed, counted, and recorded details for all the plants. Next year by this time I should know if the population is growing or declining, and by how much. Seeing many very young plants this spring is encouraging. This is also the first year that I've tried my hand at pollinating the flowers. Only did 15. Next year I intend to do many more. Also this summer, I intend to wait for the caps to split and shake them about, noting in my records where I did the shaking.

An ominous event happened this summer. The main (and what looks like the original) clump zone with maybe 40-50 plants in it, is just 30 feet from our western property line. The neighbor to the west clear-cut his forest, and what was previously heavily shaded in the afternoon (including this clump) now has direct sun all afternoon. This could spell the end of many plants in this zone. Again, I'll know more next spring.

 

[cnycharles]

ouch. maybe you might want to bring loads of leaves from other spots to cover this area a bit to keep cooler until some shade grows up again

 

[grady]

ouch. maybe you might want to bring loads of leaves from other spots to cover this area a bit to keep cooler until some shade grows up again

I expect it will be 20 years or so before trees (Ponderosa pine and Douglas fir) of sufficient height beyond the fence will begin to shade this area. The trees that were mowed down this summer by a giant mechanical tracked one-man machine were up to 100 feet tall.

The upside is that the fire danger from the west is greatly reduced, as is the chance of insect infestation of my own forest. The neighbor's forest was terribly overgrown and stressed, with plenty of mistletoe. Our wind has picked up a few miles per hour and I dread the first strong westerly wind which may well blow down some of our own trees near the fence. The tallest is an old yellowbelly nearly 125 feet tall but there are numerous others over 100'. Many of the montanums' leaves are showing the effects of the wind and sun.

 

[cnycharles]

ah,... plant some quick-growing landscape trees right along the border, and they'll give some shade and wind diversion. 'til they grow, put up some plastic snow fence or whatever to cut down the wind. you could always plant a tall blueberry bush or whatever here and there to provide the same thing (or something similar)

 

[grady]

Yes, but planting anything in this country needs water for the first couple years. Fast-growing trees need even more water. This location is about 600' from the closest available hydrant, and that's a lot of hose! The removal of the neighbor's forest will affect directly about 10 clumps of plants spread across 250' of the western edge of our property. Providing wind and sun barriers to all of them may just be a matter of erecting wooden screens near the clumps.

Fortunately, there are many other clumps further east. I also found a lone outlier about 500' south of the main zone this summer. Although I won't know for sure until next summer, I feel that the population is increasing in an easterly direction (following the prevailing westerly winds) and the logged forest won't mean an end to the population.

 

[Leo Schordje]

Grady
Great ideas, and enthusiasm. Please, leave your wild plants in situ. Don't dig any until after you have considered this for several years. You will likely regret digging in the long run. The vast majority, 95% or more, of plants removed from the wild end up dead before producing offspring. Some may persist a few years, but most end up dead. Don't sell any of the plants until you can verify your customer either has been successful at propagating cyps from seed or has maintained individual cyp plants for 15 - 20 years or more. Anyone can keep a Cyp going a year or two, you have to know what you are doing to keep them going a decade or two. Vast majority of dug up Cyp plants are as good as dead. We (collectively) are just not good at growing them. Public collections are no better than individuals at keeping plants alive long term. Once dug from the wild that clone is as good as dead.

YES! to using your wild stand as a seed source. This is the best possible use. Spread that seed around. Pollinate a good percentage of the flowers. Harvest seed capsules, in my experience fully ripe seed is best, but I am not a cyp propagator.

Something else to consider. Experiments were done here in greater Chicagoland. The test species was Platanthera leucophaea. Nationwide its populations are crashing. 19th century records show was found in every county of the northern half of Illinois. Today there are fewer than 20 sites known that have any plants at all and where it is know populations are declining.

Ripe, dry seed capsules were harvested from a population that was healthy. The seed was broadcast in an area that appeared to be prime habitat but lacked the Platanthera. One test plot a hand ax was used to cut the sod randomly before seed was scattered. The thought being, the seed would need to come in contact with the mycorhizae in the surface layer of the soil, cutting the sod got through the heavy layer of fresh dead leaves.

It took 5 years, but a few flowering plants were found at the test location. The cut sod plot had one plant, the control plot had 2, the difference was not considered significant. Subsequent years more have shown up in the test area. In other words, spreading seed around works. Not a real high success rate, but repeated applications of seed in succeeding years should eventually lead to establishment of new populations of Cyps.

As far as I know all attempts at transplanting adult plants resulted 100% failure.

You really should start a conversation with Bill Steele at Spangle Creek Labs. He is very successful producing Cyp species from seed. He might even do contract work for you if you ask him.

http://www.spanglecreeklabs.com/

 

[grady]

Thank you for your thoughtful comments, Leo. I think you're right: best to wait a few years before selling living plants (and maybe not at all). But getting the seed out there feels so right; that's why I contacted Troy Meyers early last spring. Here is a link to their assay of the seed I sent on July 18:
http://troymeyers.com/direct/?067707
So far, so good. I'll continue sending seed caps to Troy every two weeks.

Since there are literally hundreds of seed caps still maturing on the plants, so there is plenty of opportunity for scattering them around. I'll be begin doing this when they split.

Also, I just emailed Spangle Creek to see if they have any interest; thanks for the suggestion.

The very best outcome of this adventure is to have my little crop become a reliable source for quality seed. But with the plants dependence on mycorhizae fungi, how can anyone grow these plants if their soil does not contain the fungi? Can this be purchased commercially?

Grady

 

[cnycharles]

You can buy different mychorrizae around, often by the time plants come out of flask they may not need it. Not true for all species but some need it more or less than others


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Leo Schordje]

About mycorhizae, while cyps are selective, there are a number of different species of mycorhizae that they can and do use. Amost every temperate deciduous forest has at least one or more of the species of fungi that will be compatible. Most trees form associations with more than one species of mycorhizae. Of the mycorhiza hosted by oak trees, and american white pine one of the species will likely work with Cyps. The mycorhizae is not an impossible problem.

 

[grady]

Thanks to all for your valuable feedback on this post. As a result of further soul-searching, I've decided to not sell living plants right now. Maybe in a year or two, after I've discovered if this population is increasing or decreasing, and after I find what effect my neighbor's forest clearcutting operations have on the plants. In the meantime, there may be seedlings available this year at troymeyers.com.