Complex Paph hybrids / bulldog Paphs... why?

[SlipperFan]

Interesting thread.

I tend to agree with Matt, though. Although there are some in the complex category I appreciate, there are very few I like enough to try to purchase. Like Jason, I've observed that most of the complexes seem to have really bad flaws. The photos posted here in this thread so far are certainly exceptions.

I think that all of this is due to the concept of trying to create a perfectly round flower. This was the case with Phals and Cattleys, as well. For some reason, the idea of "round" became the ideal. I asked a question about that at a Slipper symposium at our local judging center last Spring, but never really got a satisfactory answer as to why round became the ideal.

Triangles, I think, are just as nice. Then there are the long-petaled shapes...

 

[gonewild]

Interesting thread.

I tend to agree with Matt, though. Although there are some in the complex category I appreciate, there are very few I like enough to try to purchase. Like Jason, I've observed that most of the complexes seem to have really bad flaws. The photos posted here in this thread so far are certainly exceptions.

I think that all of this is due to the concept of trying to create a perfectly round flower. This was the case with Phals and Cattleys, as well. For some reason, the idea of "round" became the ideal. I asked a question about that at a Slipper symposium at our local judging center last Spring, but never really got a satisfactory answer as to why round became the ideal.

Triangles, I think, are just as nice. Then there are the long-petaled shapes...

Round = $$
Round flowers was the goal of hybridizers because round is (was) a better shape for a corsage and other florist uses. As well a nice round flower packs in a box and ships better than a flower with "points" or edges that may become torn with use.

 

[SlipperFan]

So it's all about money???

That doesn't explain why judges buy into it.

 

[gonewild]

I never really cared much for complex hybrids either. But when I see a really nice one it is really nice! I don't like Picasso style paintings either but when I see a real one I must admit I like it.

Complex Paphs are much like roses. A matter of taste. Sending a dozen species roses might not have much impact. (or it might :sob: )

Jason's mention of "round" about his new hybrid caused me to remember a photo I took recently and I remember thinking when I took it "man that is round". The hybrid was registered in 1956. Look at the photo and realize the hybrid was registered 50 years ago.

I only intended to post the photo as a topic of interest but since I needed to look up the name I decided to look up the parentage.
The Hybrid is Betty Bracey 'Meadowlark' HCC/AOS

Seven different species have been used to create the hybrid:

species
spicerianum
insigne
druryi
villosum
lawrenceanum
callosum
niveum

The seven different species were combined into 11 different hybrids starting in the year 1884

hybrids
Leeanum 1884
Actaeus 1895
Winnianum 1886
Maudiae 1900
Christopher 1902
Memoria Jeringhamiae 1905
Purity 1916
Florence Spencer 1917
Gwen Hannen 1922
Gwenpur 1935
Betty Bracey 1956

What a history the complex Paph that I photographed a few weeks ago has!
I wonder what happened to it's progeny after 1956? I wonder if Jason's "Stone Lovely" is a descendant?

They are all beautiful in some way. Living art.

I'm glad many people love and cherish them because these treasures deserve to be around forever.

This thread caused me to think differently about complex paphs. Thanks for starting it Matt.

 

[Ross]

What a history the complex Paph that I photographed a few weeks ago has!
I wonder what happened to it's progeny after 1956? I wonder if Jason's "Stone Lovely" is a descendant?

Betty Bracey is not a descendant of Stone Lovely, but it is one of the parents of Paph Peachie = Hellas x Betty Bracey.

 

[gonewild]

So it's all about money???

That doesn't explain why judges buy into it.

No, it's not all about money. But economic value is always a guiding factor in what makes something desirable. If something is worth more money it is always more desirable to someone or a group. If something is more desirable it is always worth more money. That is just how it is.

Judges don't buy into anything. Judges must look at what is in front of them. Judges don't make a decision as to what hybridizers will present them. But there was a time when judges were closely tied to commercial growers.

I would think when judging a hybrid a major factor in awarding it would be to recognize how it approaches the goal of the breeding line.

I suppose if you brought in a perfectly square white Phal. it would get an award as something new?

Perhaps an experienced judge should comment on the point as to whether judges buy into a trend.

 

[Billie]

There are two reasons people here in W A grow complex paphs

1. they are by far easier to breed and therefore a cheaper to buy $ 10 -$20 against $ 35-50 for a specie seedling
2. they grow and flower much quicker .2-5 years from flask
but give me a nice stoneii Id wait for that any day .
billie

 

[SlipperFan]

Judges don't buy into anything.

If they don't buy into "round is ideal," then they are the ones who made that determination.

 

[Rick]

Actually from what I've heard from judges in general about almost any orchid, its all about maximum viewable 2 dimensional space.

Big round and flat maximizes in your face presentation.

Reflex or cupping is wasted material within in the 2 dimensional presentation.

If you see daylight or jagged edges around the parts its a distraction from the overall presentation.

 

[MoreWater]

Matt - my sentiments exactly. However, it is not possible to hang out with John in DC for long without getting brainwashed... albeit only enough to get a token few seedlings to try out. I am still not too excited about them and my WOWs generally go to species and primaries.

I just returned from a business trip to find my first ever complex paph bud hasn't aborted despite the 2 weeks of total neglect. Of course, now that I'm home it will probably voice its complaints.....

 

[smartie2000]

Catts and phals have been bred and inter bred to create the ideal full blooms, which look fantastic. For whatever reason, paphs don't look quite as appealing when they are so interbred to become round. They loose their natural grace and charm, and look a little strange sometimes. I think its a matter of taste. Some orchids were never meant to be round I guess.

I think white complexes look nice...the resemblance to Paph niveum or our natural obsession with white things?? Complexes also really look like art when they are spotted and striped intricately, those are also the good ones.

I've never seen a paph used as a corsage before yet....

On the other hand paph maudiae hybrids are also really bred and interbred but they look great. I never hear a complaint about them. Maybe round complexes are now outdated and not as trendy here.

Complex breeding does make them much more vigorous, which can be a reason for their popularity. Not everyone has the patience or ability to grow and bloom species, especially back in the past when cultivation info and technology was lacking.

I've seen some pics of really badly defective blooms though because of all this interbreeding. LOL plants with triple pouches. The plant can't figure out its own genes.

 

[slippertalker]

No, it's not all about money. But economic value is always a guiding factor in what makes something desirable. If something is worth more money it is always more desirable to someone or a group. If something is more desirable it is always worth more money. That is just how it is.

Judges don't buy into anything. Judges must look at what is in front of them. Judges don't make a decision as to what hybridizers will present them. But there was a time when judges were closely tied to commercial growers.

I would think when judging a hybrid a major factor in awarding it would be to recognize how it approaches the goal of the breeding line.

I suppose if you brought in a perfectly square white Phal. it would get an award as something new?

Perhaps an experienced judge should comment on the point as to whether judges buy into a trend.

As an AOS judge, as you state, we view what is placed in front of us. For complex paph hybrids (and odonts,cymbidiums,cattleyas,etc) the standard for many years has been full segments forming a circle. Of course, the parentage is taken in to account. Award quality complex hybrids are fairly rare compared to the awards for more simple hybrids and species.

The standards were created by an older generation of orchid judges, many of whom were the giants of hybridizing in the 1930's and 40's. The AOS has been around of 84 years, and judging began shortly thereafter, evolving from the RHS judging format. To answer the question about why we have a standard of round and equilateral, it was because that is what hybridizers were formulating as their idea of perfection and for the most part it is pretty pleasing to the eye. I really don't think money has anything to do with it other than breeders will have award quality seedlings to sell.

Other flower shapes are judged like brassia species and hybrids, stanhopeas, catasetums, gongoras, etc. The consideration is always given to the parentage and whether the product is an improvement.

Whether judges "buy" into a trend is a good question. To my eye, it's more a matter of whether the trends fit into the standards set by the Handbook. A good example is the Harlequin phalaenopsis plants that are all the rage these days. The streaky flowers are hideous to some, exciting to others and just strange to others, but the bottom line is they still need to have good flower count, substance, shape and clear coloration. Many do not at this time...

 

[littlefrog]

On the other hand paph maudiae hybrids are also really bred and interbred but they look great. I never hear a complaint about them. Maybe round complexes are now outdated and not as trendy here.

But the trend in Maudiae breeding is towards rounder flowers... To be awarded now, a maudiae type should have wider petals and a flatter dorsal than previous awards. I don't think the genetic material is there to have perfectly round maudiae, and I don't think anybody would want one. Crosses between maudiae type and complex are also becoming popular, these will have a more open form than the bulldog parent.

Now, why is round better? It isn't. We wouldn't accept a 'round' Paph. sanderianum or rothschildianum. But for the type, bulldogs are expected to fill a space with no gaps between the flower parts. For symmetry (the human eye finds symmetry more pleasing than asymmetry, this is well documented), this means a round flower. It is all type and breeding.

Personally I don't give a whole lot of weight to 'roundness' when judging. Symmetry, yes. Asymmetry in a slipper flower is a fatal flaw for me.

 

[gonewild]

I've never seen a paph used as a corsage before yet....

In the past they were. Back in the 1960's we sold many paphs as cut flowers and most were used as corsages. When the "hippie" movement came along the corsage flower market took a dive and many flowers that were common for corsages were no longer in demand.

The reason I pointed out that commercial use and demand ($) played a lead role in flower shape desirability is because commercial flower growers bought many times more plants than did hobbyists. Most (quantity) hybrids were produced by commercial growers and it only stands to reason they would hybridize for qualities that they themselves needed.

Paph. rothschildianum just is not going to be in demand with florists for use in weddings. But Paph. Maudiae or complex hybrids will always be.

 

[Sue]

I've never seen a paph used as a corsage before yet....

Here you go:

My fiancée and myself with corsages I made. This was at a friend's wedding. I used a Paph. hainanense and three Den. Spring Dream 'Apollon' for mine, hers was made from a Slc. and Phal. hybrid, names too long to remember or bother with.

This is totally off topic. Especially since I used a species, and not a round one at that. But now you've seen a paph used as a corsage. Well, I guess it's really a freakishly large boutonniere.

 

[slippertalker]

It's not unusual for cymbidiums to be used for corsages. I've seen pictures from the 50's and 60's with cattleyas and even paphs used as corsages.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

When I first got into orchids, I remember seeing pictures of complex paphs and finding it incomprehensible that anyone would enjoy them...in fact, it was the "roundness" of the flower that turned me off...to me, sukhakulii and Maudiae were the ideal paphs. Then I finally saw one in real life...and I was hooked. No photo could prepare me for the size of the bloom I saw, or its texture...like pure wax. Now I love them....granted, there are only so many that you can have in the confines of a windowsill type grower. They get repetitive, and while I like the greens and spotteds, I'm not that thrilled with the "reds"....There is definitely more variety in the primary hybrids, and I truly love the species...knowing what I have, having the (slightly possible) goal of collecting every species of paph (try that with a hybrid...) is definitely something I can appreciate. And the whites...! I generally find white flowers boring, but not white paphs! We all have our tastes...I actually find the multiflorals the most repetitive, and I find Phrags incredibly repetitive (in fact, I intend to never get another phrag hybrid again.....at least until I see what the kovachii hybrids look like) but overall, in principle, I've never seen a paph I didn't like...well, alright...maybe hennisianum....and randsii (although I would try a randsii just for the challenge, and for the point of trying it...) Take care, Eric

 

[Equestris]

This thread has convinced me that I absolutely MUST try a few complex paphs. Have a couple enroute to me as we speak. Now, I would prefer to buy them from Matt--but we all know how he feels about it! LOL! Thanks for educating me on this topic!

Oh, by the way Jon in SW Ohio--what is the name of your plant in post #5?

 

[gore42]

Hey Equestris (I never know what to call you at this forum....),

I hope that I get to see yours when they bloom What ones did you end up getting? And did you get them from Marriot?

There's no doubt that complexes can be impressive in person, and beautiful in any circumstances. When Hadley Cash visited the Denver Orchid Society last year, he had pictures of some of the most impressive complexes I've ever seen, not to mention all of the plants that he brought along.

But after his hour long presentation, I still bought two species from him; villosum and a stonei flask (which was outrageously over-priced; I don't know what I was thinking). I guess it's just as well... I don't think that I have the money to start buying all of those famous complexes yet

But my wholesaler in Hawaii is bugging me about buying their new crop of complexes. Maybe just a few....

No.


- Matt

 

[Jon in SW Ohio]

That is Paph. (Sea Cliff x Via Virgenes). I got it at our Spring Show from Natt's Orchids and saw it in the box while they were unpacking and quickly asked him how much it was.

Jon