'clonal name'?

[Kevin]

So, this is more for orchids in general, rather than just slippers, but it applies also. There are a few things I think I know about the orchid world, but sometimes I hear something that makes me question whether I'm on track or not. I'm having a discussion with a guy on another forum who is trying to tell me that the word 'clone' only applies to a mericlone and not to any individual plant. I always thought that any individual orchid plant could be given a name in quotes that is called a 'clonal name'. He is calling that a varietal name. Is there a rule about what the word in quotes after a plant name is called? Are there any sites that can back that up? If so, do you have the links?

The plant in question is Den. Anucha Flare, and some of the plants are splash petalled, and some have come out peloric. I have since found out that there was only one single plant of this cross left after the cross was registered, so all remaining plants are mericlones of that original (it apparently had been mericloned). If this is so, shouldn't all these plants have a clonal name? And, a question about peloric: does this arise from 'messing up the genes' though excessive mericloning, or does it just happen randomly through breeding?

Thanks a bunch for your input.

 

[Erythrone]

Here are extracts of Handbook of judging and exibition AOS

clonal variety: A named individual which is always vegetatively propagated from a clone; a cultivar.

clone: A plant grown from a single seed and all subsequent vegetative divisions of it.

Cultivar name: A fancy (that is, non-Latin) name given to an orchid clone and set in single quotes when written or printed.

Grex: A flock or group, applied collectively to the progeny of a given cross.

Grex name: The fancy (that is, non-Latin) name given to a cross and to all progeny of that cross.

Variety: 1. A given kind; a plant that varies from the type in one or more important characters. (Also see botanical variety, clonal variety, horticultural variety and cultivar.) 2. Both as numbers of different genera and variety within one or a few genera. (For use in scoring Groups of Plants, Collection or Cut Flower Exhibits - paragraphs 6.3.1, 6.3.2, 6.3.3.)

Mericlone: An individual plant produced through meristem tissue culture propagation and treated as a vegetative division of the clone from which it was produced.

 

[Rick]

If you can tell from the above definitions, the term Variety is related to botany/taxonomic naming of a plant. It will not refer to an individual plant, but more generally to a local population of a given species of plant.

Clonal names are horticultural labels of individuals (and or genetically similar plants by vegetative division). In a way a mericlone is a form of vegetative division of an individual plant.

For an example:

Paph. philippinense var. roebelinii 'Time Twister'

The genus is Paphiopediulum
The species is philippinense
The local variety is roebelinii (a long petaled version of the species from the Island of Luzon)

'Time Twister' is the clonal name for an individual plant. Anyone can give a plant a clonal name, but if a plant is judged by a recognized body (like AOS) the plant must be given a clonal name to distinguish and label it separately from all others of that species and variety.

 

[Rick]

Den. Anucha Flare

This plant is a hybrid of multiple species. (I don't know which ones without going back to a registry).

There will be no "varietal" names for this hybrid unless the particular species plants used in this cross were specified taxonomic varieties. And even then you won't see them listed until you go back into the registered parentage of a given "clone".

Crosses can be remade from the original species at any time, so you can end up with new "clones" of hybrids.

Also you can occasionally, during the mericloning process, end up with mutations or sports that will give you options to give a new clonal name to a registered mericlone hybrid.

 

[Kevin]

Thanks! That's what I thought.

Erythrone: can 'clonal variety' simply be called a 'clone'? This might be where this guy is confused.

Rick: I have OrchidWiz, and it says Den. Anucha Flare is Ekapol x Suriyon Stripe. This guy I was talking to - all I know is he is in the U.S., has been growing orchids for over 20 years, and has been involved with hybridizing. Given that, why would he have never heard the term 'clone' used this way before? Something is off here.

One thing that is a bit confusing, though, is the word 'clone' itself. How can one single seedling be given a 'clonal' name? It is not a clone. Should the term be different in that case? When an orchid gets an award, it is given a clonal name when it is not a clone, simply an individual. I've never understood that wording.

 

[John M]

Kevin, you've got some excellent information already. But, even though I might be repeating some of it, I'll add in my 2 cents in bold here, to help give you the full picture. Your question is one that is never asked by people who get into orchids, burn hot for a couple years and then lose interest and give it all up. All of us who get past that "honeymoon" stage eventually ask the very questions that you've asked here.

So, this is more for orchids in general, rather than just slippers, but it applies also. There are a few things I think I know about the orchid world, but sometimes I hear something that makes me question whether I'm on track or not. I'm having a discussion with a guy on another forum who is trying to tell me that the word 'clone' only applies to a mericlone and not to any individual plant. The other guy is wrong. God only knows how he missed that. It is impossible to have a conversation with a knowledgeable grower without both of you using the word "clone" in reference to a particular, individual, genetically unique plant, including Paphs, which are never mericloned.I always thought that any individual orchid plant could be given a name in quotes that is called a 'clonal name'. Correct.He is calling that a varietal name. He is wrong. A varietal name is something like var. alba, or var. flamea, etc. A varietal name refers to a population of plants of the same species or hybrid with a unique difference (usually colour), from other plants of the same species or hybrid. That being said, in the first half (or so), of the last century, it was common to refer to what we now call a clonal name, a variety. They also sometimes used the true varietal name in place of the species name. For example: Cattleya labiata autumnalis var. 'ABC Orchids'; or, Cattleya autumnalis var. 'ABC Orchids'. Over time, as organized judging and granting of awards to plants became more important to horticulturists, so did the names of the plants winning those awards evolve to become more uniform and standardized. So, people began paying more attention to the proper Genus and Species names as well as correctly adding var. in front of the variety name and using only single quotes around the clonal name.....as well as calling it a clonal name to distinguish if from the true varietal name.Is there a rule about what the word in quotes after a plant name is called? Common usage today is "clonal name"....and a clonal name is always in single quotes.Are there any sites that can back that up? If so, do you have the links?

The plant in question is Den. Anucha Flare, and some of the plants are splash petalled, and some have come out peloric. Just to be picky here; most people incorrectly say that something is peloric, when in fact, it is semi-peloric. A peloric flower has 3 complete lips, not one lip and two petals trying to be a lip; but, not quite getting there.I have since found out that there was only one single plant of this cross left after the cross was registered, so all remaining plants are mericlones of that original (it apparently had been mericloned). If this is so, shouldn't all these plants have a clonal name? Based on the information you've just provided and assuming it is accurate, the answer is YES.And, a question about peloric: does this arise from 'messing up the genes' though excessive mericloning, or does it just happen randomly through breeding? Both.

Thanks a bunch for your input.

 

[John M]

Thanks! That's what I thought.

Erythrone: can 'clonal variety' simply be called a 'clone'? This might be where this guy is confused. Okay; so, I'm not Erythrone; but, your answer is YES.

Rick: I have OrchidWiz, and it says Den. Anucha Flare is Ekapol x Suriyon Stripe. This guy I was talking to - all I know is he is in the U.S., has been growing orchids for over 20 years, and has been involved with hybridizing. Given that, why would he have never heard the term 'clone' used this way before? Something is off here. I agree. However, it really depends on how much he really paid attention to information he heard and read as well as who was providing it to him. He may have got his original information from an old book, written by someone who got their knowledge a lo-ooong time ago. Perhaps he had a mentor who was an "old timer" in the orchid world who still hung on to the terminology commonly in use in his day. The only way to learn this stuff and keep up with changes is to interact with lots of other growers. Perhaps this guy has been growing for 20 years; but, seldom gone to an orchid club meeting and in that way, simply missed out on the more modern thinking/common name usages. Some people today still refer to a "cultivar" (which is short for "cultivated variety"); when they are actually referring to a particular, individual plant, not a particular variety. You just have to learn what's right, what's not......and translate as you go.

One thing that is a bit confusing, though, is the word 'clone' itself. How can one single seedling be given a 'clonal' name? It is not a clone. Technically, you are correct; but, common usage today is to use clone as a noun, when referring to a single individual, as well as a group of asexually propagated plants from a single, original plant.....and to use clone as a verb as well when referring to the process of producing those asexually propagated plants.Should the term be different in that case? YES, it really should. It would make things much more clear to people just learning about our hobby. Something like "unidname" (abreviated from "unique identity name"), used universally, would make more sense than calling it a clonal name. Although, "clonal name" does roll off the tongue much more easily!When an orchid gets an award, it is given a clonal name when it is not a clone, simply an individual. I've never understood that wording. Well, for now, get used to it. Try to think if a clonal name as a serial number. It is unique to that particular, individual plant and all of it's asexual propagations. See "clonal name" and think "serial number".

..

 

[Rick]

Rick: I have OrchidWiz, and it says Den. Anucha Flare is Ekapol x Suriyon Stripe.

At least by normal taxo nomenclature, you still don't have the parents back to the original species (and or varieties). Species names will be in lower case.

Not a biggie as far as the main issues you are concerned with on this thread, but you have what looks like a complex hybrid in this example.

John I like your serial number analogy.

 

[Ray]

Personally, I thing the synonymy of "clone" or "clonal name" and "cultivar" is a mistake - a blurring of the lines of definition.

How willing would any of us be to tolerate comparative discussions of the "slippers primulinum and besseae", without the proper genus attached?

 

[gonewild]

Ramble through History....

Back in the late 60's when tissue culture was becoming a way to propogate orchids commercially the process was called "mericloneing" and the resulting plant was called a "mericlone".

Prior to tissue culture reproduction the only was to get a replicate orchid "cultivar" of a individual plant was by dividing the plant into multiple pieces. Each piece was called a "division".

For example if you flowered a seedling cattleya plant and it was awarded then you gave it a cultivar name. At it was properly called the 'xxxx' cultivar or a specific species or hybrid. When your plant got big enough you could divide it into 2 "divisions". Each division of the plant carried the 'xxxx' cultivar name. And forever all divisions of all divisions of the cultivar have the same 'xxxx' cultivar name. But after perhaps 10 years there may only have been a handful of the 'xxxx' cultivar in existence and each one may sell for a high price because of their scarcity.

Then alone comes the mericloning process and suddenly you can take the scarce 'xxxx' cultivar and with the mericlone process make 1000 new mericlone 'xxxx' cultivars. Suddenly the 'xxxx' cultivar is not scarce anymore and so the value per plant is much less.

So what does this have to do with the word "clone"?
When tissue culture was new no one really knew for sure if the "cloned" plants were actually as true to type as a "division". The original 'xxxx' cultivar divisions had more value and appeal than the 'xxxx' mericlones.
People began to call plants made by mericloneing (tissue culture) "clones", short for mericlone.
A "division" of an awarded plant might cost $1000 and a "clone" of the same plant cost only $15.

The word "clone" was simply a descripter identifying the method of propagation used to generate the plant.
you could have
Cattelya 'xxxx' - a division of the original plant
Cattelya 'xxxx' - a clone

Then after some time passed we accepted that clones were in fact exact copies of the original plant. So the word "clone" became a word to describe the plant as belonging to group of exact replicates of a cultivar.

A "clone" is a copy of the original but it should not be used to describe the original plant that was created by seed reproduction or mutation. The original plant is the "cultivar" all others are "clones" of the cultivar.

But now the words are evolving and anything original has less importance. Now all members of a cultivar are referred to as "clones".

 

[monocotman]

somaclonal variation

hi there,

just to add a bit of info.
When some plants are propagated using the mericlone technique, it generated some 'new' variation in the progeny. The amount of this varies from plant to plant. The mericloned plants are not all necessarily identical to the original plant. This is termed somaclonal variation. It can be useful in plant breeding.
You only have to look at Vulstekyara Cambria 'Plush' to see this happening.
It was mericloned so many times that 'Lensings Favourite' and the orange clone were identified and subsequently mericloned themselves.
Somaclonal variation occurs because the meristem that is used to propagate the plant undergoes many cycles of cell division to produce a callus, before it differentiates into normal new plants.
If any mutations happen during this phase then they will be multiplied up and can result in noticeable variation in the progeny.
This is what has happened with the Dendrobium hybrid.
Plants that flower like the parent should get the same clonal name but you could give the plants with the different flowers another clonal name,
Regards,
David

 

[Kyle]

Hi Kevin,

I read the original discussion on the other forum. One remark I have is that when you do mericlone, there is a certain amount of mutation. The two most common are pelorics and tetraploids. When those happen, they are given new clonal names, despite being mericlones.

In regards to clonal names and mericlones. Often overseas vendors don't put clonal names on thier mericlones. Maybe so buyers will buy doubles of the same orchid. There are examples of the same phal being awarded with different clonal names, because they were sold to two different people who assumed they were seed grown because of the lack of clonal name.

Kyle

 

[gonewild]

hi there,
Plants that flower like the parent should get the same clonal name but you could give the plants with the different flowers another clonal name,
Regards,
David

But what if the genetic variations are not visible?

 

[gonewild]

Hi Kevin,

I read the original discussion on the other forum. One remark I have is that when you do mericlone, there is a certain amount of mutation. The two most common are pelorics and tetraploids. When those happen, they are given new clonal names, despite being mericlones.

In regards to clonal names and mericlones. Often overseas vendors don't put clonal names on thier mericlones. Maybe so buyers will buy doubles of the same orchid. There are examples of the same phal being awarded with different clonal names, because they were sold to two different people who assumed they were seed grown because of the lack of clonal name.

Kyle

No wonder there is so much arguing over whether a plant label is correct. The cloned parents are not genetically what they are labeled.

So back when the old timers said that clones would destroy the orchid hobby they were correct.

 

[Erythrone]

But what if the genetic variations are not visible?

Good question... I ever asked it to someone who was studying white spruce clones (spruce cloning was possible just becausse we were cloning embryo, if I can say, not meristem. There was a lot a variation). He did not answer. Of course, nomenclature of spruce and orchids is different in many apects, but not for all!

 

[Erythrone]

individual, genetically unique plant, including Paphs, which are never mericloned

Or very very very rarely mericloned. According to Jason Fischer, it is possible, but very difficult.

Phrag besseae 'Iccarius' 3N clone:

http://www.orchidweb.com/detail.aspx?ID=1643

 

[Erythrone]

A peloric flower has 3 complete lips,

Thanks, I didn't know.

I have Den. Anucha Frare and my plant has 3 complete lips.

 

[monocotman]

somaclonal variation

Hi Erythrone,

it is quite possible that nearly every mericlone differs slightly from the original plant due to these mutations. You just cannot see it in most of them as they are very minor.
I don't know if anyone has really looked into this.
Have you ever looked at a large group of orchid mericlones in flower and thought that you could see some variation in flower quality but put it down to other factors as they all 'must ' be identical?
I used to prefer buying mericlones when I could see them in flower,
Regards,
David

 

[gonewild]

Or very very very rarely mericloned. According to Jason Fischer, it is possible, but very difficult.

Phrag besseae 'Iccarius' 3N clone:

http://www.orchidweb.com/detail.aspx?ID=1643

I think in this case the plants were "cloned" but not "mericloned" because they did not actually use meristematic tissue to produce the plantlets. They divided clumps of protocorms which may be actually closer to "dividing" a mature plant than to tissue culture multiplication?

 

[Erythrone]

Are you sure, gonewild? I thought it was really mericloning. Jason talk about it at the Orchidophiles de Montreal meeting. But I don't undersand English very well.

Maybe Shiva remembers, if he was at the meeting.